Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Don't help the guy...hell don't even give him the time of day. But I fail to see what a childish retaliation like that accomplishes. Somehow I don't think tough love is going to change most people like that.

I tend to agree...I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time by getting in my car and driving back over there. But if he had done that to me he'd have caught quite a reaction in the moment.

I would say that if they get enough dressing-downs that a lot of people might finally get a clue. Not all or even most...but then those who don't we can know simply don't deserve help. I honesetly feel that if you are not willing to help yourself then you don't deserve help from anyone. Not if you aren't ABLE to help yourself but if you don't WANT to. If you aren't willing to help yourself then you can bend over and kiss your own ass for all I care. There are too many people who need help and will do wahetever they can to get it for me to worry about those who just want handouts.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by angryssg

To add to what 8588 said. You also have to think of the era. Durin the time periods of WWI and WWII it was not "manly to talk about stuff like that" Not that they didnt have the same issues, but just like a boy thinks that it is not ok to cry, it wasnt ok to address mental issues. Add to that the fact that the military started experimenting all sorts of different drugs on US soldiers during Vietnam, Desert Storm and Enduring @ Iraqi Freedom. Also from a medical standpoint pshchology was not as practiced then as it is now.

To sum it up, all war Vets experienced it in every war. Light just wasnt always shed on the matter.

Also, consider the growing media impact. Vietnam was the first war to really be "televised." Then you had 24 hour news channels with "Desert Storm," and now you have the Internet. There's no longer a filter to the realities and brutalities of war.

[gibbsisgod]

I will never forget about a somewhat simialr instance that happened to my father one day. After leaving the grocery store, we pulled up to a stop light and there was a homeless guy there. He starts begging my dad for some money through the window. My dad told him to get into the bed of the truck and we would take him to McDonalds and get him whatever meal he wanted. He basically told my dad to Eff off. Told my dad he didn't like McDonalds and asked if he could just have the money so he could eat somewhere else.

This is why I don't even give these people the time of day. I donate to charities and churches but I will never give money to somebody who stands on the side of the road asking for a handout.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

Well stated.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.

To that I don't have an answer; And yes, I've seen them with their hand out on the side of the road.

But my guess is, we tend to scrutinize their actions a little more, rightfully or wrongfully I don't know, because they are indeed homeless and we want to know "why and how".

[MTK]

I'd like to see some studies or research on this issue. I see a lot of strong assumptions being made and frankly I think people are quite biased in thinking that most homeless people are just lazy drunks or drug addicts looking for handouts.

[724Skinsfan]

I see plenty of homeless people with the signs on the side of the road but, really, that's a bare fraction of the entire homeless population and some of those lazy assess aren't even homeless. Using the "roadside guys" as general example of homeless people is Michael Moore-ish (misleading). I volunteer on occasion at a soup kitchen. Seeing a mother and father with 2 kids in tow looking like at any moment they could just burst into tears will alter your way of thinking. Some people go through a run of bad circumstances that takes the will to fight right out of you. Try doing anything when you truly feel it won't make a bit of difference because so far nothing has. I challenge anyone to go homeless for 3 months and then try to get back on your feet with no help from mommy and daddy or whoever you might have as a benefactor.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.

I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.

[dmek25]

i agree with 12th. all of us, with one wrong decision( or unlucky break) could end up like this. i came up thru the ranks, living like i never thought i could. maybe the same can be said for them

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'd like to see some studies or research on this issue. I see a lot of strong assumptions being made and frankly I think people are quite biased in thinking that most homeless people are just lazy drunks or drug addicts looking for handouts.

Even the most bleeding heart liberal on the planet will admit that drugs/alcohol are nearly inseperable from the problem of homelessness. Someone mentioned the Vietnam Vets earlier. Even for them the trauma of combat was probably not enough to make them dysfunctional. You add alcohol or opiates, though, and they go downhill very quickly.

And it's not just homelessness. If you were to remove drug and alcohol abuse (and I mean the severe cases, not the borderline ones on their way to being severe, hmmm, hmmm), you could watch all manner of social ills disappear like that proverbial fart in the wind. Joseph Califano who worked for LBJ and is a Democrat is very strong on this issue. If you are interested in some statistics that will knock your socks off, you might search on him.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.

That is one of the problems is that Americans do not save and spend more than they should. If I lost my job today I could go maybe 8 to 10 years without a pay check. Now, it would drain my savings, stocks, retirement, etc but I could do it if I had to. The rule of thumb is 6 months and I say most people could not live 6 months without their income.

[jsarno]

I wanted to post this last night, but the site went down as I was typing:

This concerned me, speaking about France and Canada’s healthcare:

While patients may not pay for services at the doctor's office, they do pay high taxes to fund such a system, something Gupta said he was concerned that "Sicko" audiences might not realize.



Moore responded by saying Americans pay more in copays, deductibles and insurance premiums. "We [America] have a system built on profit," the moviemaker said.





No "WE" don't. I have a friend that lives in Saskatoon, and she said that they pay over 50% of their salary to taxes for that health care, and if it's life threatening (ie: need surgery NOW), they get put on at least a 6 month waiting list and try to come to America for the surgery instead cause they will die with the healthcare they have up there.

Fact is, there is no perfect health care system anywhere in the world.



I don't know how feasible this is, but if the government does take over, why not circumvent the insurance companies. Really, it's not greedy doctors, or frivolous lawsuits (although that does exist), it's the insurance companies raping the consumers. They are, in affect, a middle man that isn't needed.