Liberal Supermajority

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

Whatever union lover, next your going to tell me that any kid that shows up to an athletic event should get a trophy just for trying. Yeah that's a good way to teach work ethic, and pamper the lazy. I would love to see an union employee try to work in a non-union factory, the key word there is "work," you won't find that in any union dictionary. Then you will follow up with the education system needs to eliminate physical education just because little Johnny or little Suzy may not be as good as others and their feelings may be hurt...

Ignorance combined with a healthly dose of utter nonsense. Lovely concoction . . .

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Before busting 8588s chops you probably should've done a little more homework. He is much closer to being correct on this point than you. While the worldwide sales and employee numbers are the same you forgot the most important number....I know this is hard for a lefty to comprehend....profits. GM = - $2B, Toyota = + $ 13B.

You should also read this article from AutoObserver/Edmunds, a non-politcal source:

Imagine that, a company from a socialist country having the upper hand. Hopefully the democrats will be able to duplicate their success politically, socially, and commercially (without the mistakes of course ).

GM has 5 billion a year committed to health care for current employees and 47 billion in future obligations to retirees. If only unions would allow GM to terminate these health benefits GM would be in much better shape. As for 8588's posts, they're nothing more than dickish rants. There's nothing correct about calling them under-worked and overpaid.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

So, Toyota's No. 1. What Now GM? - Auto Observer

The article mentions exactly what 8588 is talking about. From the article:
North America: GM’s Challenge
Still, North America is GM’s home base, and the carmaker has its work cut out for it here.
It’s still got too many employees -– both salaried and hourly –- in its ranks. Clearly, GM needs a favorable contract with the UAW this fall and could use some help on health care issues, as the entire country could.
But it’s also got bloated ranks of salaried employees, many of the complacent and adding no value; in fact, they may well be hindering value. Only yesterday, hours after the “Toyota surpasses GM” announcement, I sat at a high school sporting event with a GM employee. He was telling me about co-workers just putting in their time until they were offered a buyout or were due for retirement. One, that very afternoon, was seeking out a quiet spot for an afternoon siesta, he told me. GM, get rid of them!

I don't have any experience in the auto industry, but I have extensive experience in the telecom/networking industry and I can tell you with 100% certainty, whenever I was pricing a project that involved union workers I knew my cost would be significantly higher, the rules/regs would be much more difficult to navigate, and the customer would ultimately be at the mercy of the "union rules". I always avoided using union labor after a couple of bad experiences.

Were the unions a good thing back in the first half of the 1900s, absolutely. Today the free market is the best way to determine wages and pricing. That's why a vast majority of US workers are non-union, and companies cannot be competitive with union workers. You and the left may not like it, but that's reality.

I don't even know what that means. There are plenty of non-union shops where people hold similar sentiment and I am sure you would take a buyout from a sinking ship as well. Don't confuse human nature with nurture.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT

Ignorance combined with a healthly dose of utter nonsense. Lovely concoction . . .

Say what you want the point is America is getting to "SOFT"...

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Imagine that, a company from a socialist country having the upper hand. Hopefully the democrats will be able to duplicate their success politically, socially, and commercially (without the mistakes of course ).

GM has 5 billion a year committed to health care for current employees and 47 billion in future obligations to retirees. If only unions would allow GM to terminate these health benefits GM would be in much better shape. As for 8588's posts, they're nothing more than dickish rants. There's nothing correct about calling them under-worked and overpaid.



I don't even know what that means. There are plenty of non-union shops where people hold similar sentiment and I am sure you would take a buyout from a sinking ship as well. Don't confuse human nature with nurture.

So now your getting your facts from Auto Weekly and last month it was YouTube. I'm guessing next month will be SNL. LOL

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

So now your getting your facts from Auto Weekly and last month it was YouTube. I'm guessing next month will be SNL. LOL

It is certainly better than simply saying "I hear that [...]"

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Let's not forget, unions usually provide safer working environments and better trained workers.

[dmek25]

8588, if you dont mind, what kind of work are you in?

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

My statement is FUD??? Did you just watch Sicko or are you just following the socialized medicine talking points?

Carroll: U.S. health care is not inferior - The Denver Post

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

Evidence from countires with socialized medicine show higher mortality rates than the U.S. for cancer and significantly longer wait times for treatments. Do some research and don't drink the Obam-Aid.

Yes, FUD. Our current system does not work:
NEJM -- The Quality of Health Care Delivered to Adults in the United States

Your response is typical of the "I'm in the pocket of a lobbyist" movement attempting to stifle true healthcare reform that is good for everyone - "I can't really refute the facts or the polls, so I'll call it socialism" (or maybe even fascism!).
Political Irony › Like a jealous lover, the insurance industry doesn’t want you to be able to get health insurance from anyone, even if they turned you down

Most polls support the public option:
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Public Support for the Public Option

But many Rs and Dems are beholden to special interests:
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Special Interest Money Means Longer Odds for Public Option

So, yes - FUD.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by dmek25

8588, if you dont mind, what kind of work are you in?

At my place of employment we produce powder metal parts solely for the automotive industry. I am in charge of 18 different parts that go into BMW'S, Mercedes, VW's, and GM trucks. Our sister company is about 10 miles away from us and they voted a union in about 3 years ago. Myself and my colleagues agree that it is much better to work where we are at rather than at our sister company that has the union.

For example, we are launching a new part for a brand new customer and we transferred a piece of equipment from our sister plant to our plant. We had to get the unions permission to have the maintenance person that worked on the equipment to help set it back up at my factory. Of course the union said no. I mean hell when ever they need help we have no problem sending people over to help out. I mean with the economy doing what its doing and companies failing in the powder metal industry right and left, hell it makes perfect sense that the union would not cooperate...

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Let's not forget, unions usually provide safer working environments and better trained workers.

The unions did at one time but in truth thanks to unions, we have the safer working environments today. The government has so many regulations that the need for unions is no longer needed. But I am not so sure of the "better trained workers." In a way the union hinders the training because it only lets people work on 1 thing. For example, let's say you work in maintenance and you need to weld something. At my plant the worker is allowed to weld the parts that need welded. At a union plant that maintenance worker has to call his boss to get a welder, then the welder has to call his boss to see if he is allowed to weld on that piece of equipment. Its just a lot of pissing around when 1 worker could have just done it and its over with. I believe that in non-union plants workers get to expand their career growth. In union plants you are stuck in one career because you may go against union regulations to do a simple task.

Another example of the unions uselessness is a that the union tried to get a friend of mine fired because he was going to school at the time and would stay at his machine during his breaks to work on homework. The union feared that this action made other workers look bad. Tell me that's not messed up...

[Redskins8588]

By the way on NFL network the 1991 Redskins are on...

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

Imagine that, a company from a socialist country having the upper hand. Hopefully the democrats will be able to duplicate their success politically, socially, and commercially (without the mistakes of course ).

I haven't done my homework on the details of Japan's health care system, but it sure sounds something like a program we already have in the U.S., Medicare. The legacy health costs the US automakers are/were shouldering are a result of stupidity/greed on the part of their boards and the leadership of the IAW.

If the Democrat party in the U.S. held these ideals, I would certainly have no problem with supporting them:
The LDP traditionally identified itself with a number of general goals: rapid, export-based economic growth; close cooperation with the United States in foreign and defense policies; and several newer issues, such as administrative reform. Administrative reform encompassed several themes: simplification and streamlining of government bureaucracy; privatization of state owned enterprises; and adoption of measures, including tax reform, needed to prepare for the strain on the economy posed by an aging society. Other priorities in the early 1990s included promoting a more active and positive role for Japan in the rapidly developing Asia-Pacific region, internationalizing Japan's economy by liberalizing and promoting domestic demand, creating a high technology information society, and promoting scientific research. A business-inspired commitment to free enterprise was tempered by the insistence of important small business and agricultural constituencies on some form of protectionism and subsidies.

As for 8588's posts, they're nothing more than dickish rants. There's nothing correct about calling them under-worked and overpaid.

As far as the "rant" part, that's between you guys. I agree with points made by both of you, the end result in most union shops is that the workers are less-worked and paid higher compared to their non-union counterparts. But also, the rank and file of the unions shoulder only a small portion of the blame (as do GM/Chrysler/Ford stockholders) for the current state-of-affairs. The rank and file are mostly hard-working folks just trying to do the best they can for their families.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Yes, FUD. Our current system does not work:
NEJM -- The Quality of Health Care Delivered to Adults in the United States

Your response is typical of the "I'm in the pocket of a lobbyist" movement attempting to stifle true healthcare reform that is good for everyone - "I can't really refute the facts or the polls, so I'll call it socialism" (or maybe even fascism!).
Political Irony › Like a jealous lover, the insurance industry doesn’t want you to be able to get health insurance from anyone, even if they turned you down

Most polls support the public option:
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Public Support for the Public Option

But many Rs and Dems are beholden to special interests:
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Special Interest Money Means Longer Odds for Public Option

So, yes - FUD.

A NEJM poll, Nate Silver from 538, and an accusation that anyone against Obama's plan of healthcare reform must be on the take, WOW you came with both guns fully loaded and blazin'. The Obam-Aid must be real good. Put on your Air Jordans and wait for the Reid/Pelosi-bop comet to wisk you away to a Marxist worker's paradise.

When the national debt is + $20T in 2017, when crap & trade increases the average family's energy costs (taxes) by over $ 1,500 / yr., when SS & Medicare are closing in on being insolvent, when the employee cost of private health insurance has doubled and quality/access to care is significantly reduced.....I'll blame you.....and saden.....and the homosexuals.


Note: Before I get the homophobe response, the last part is a running joke from the Guard at Holocaust Museum thread.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Yes, FUD. Our current system does not work:
NEJM -- The Quality of Health Care Delivered to Adults in the United States

Your response is typical of the "I'm in the pocket of a lobbyist" movement attempting to stifle true healthcare reform that is good for everyone - "I can't really refute the facts or the polls, so I'll call it socialism" (or maybe even fascism!).
Political Irony › Like a jealous lover, the insurance industry doesn’t want you to be able to get health insurance from anyone, even if they turned you down

Most polls support the public option:
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Public Support for the Public Option

But many Rs and Dems are beholden to special interests:
FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Special Interest Money Means Longer Odds for Public Option

So, yes - FUD.

This ia a clip from one of your 538 links:A major, though by no means the only, substantive point of debate regarding health care reform is whether the plan considered by Congress will include a "public option" -- a government-run insurance program that would compete with private plans. Barack Obama's plan on the campaign trail included a public option: "any American will have the opportunity to enroll in the new public plan or an approved private plan," it said.

So what will be these approved private plan's. I'd bet they will be the expensive ones forcing everyone to the goverment run health care. For the plan to even work they have to get a large number of healthy americans to join the plan to offset the cost of all the people with health issues. Look at what is happening with the state run health ins in Massachusetts and now the state run ins is more expensive then private coverage. Its the same old thing. The goverment has this great idea on how to run something and make it cheaper and before its said and done it drives up the cost instead of driving them down. Here is a clip from an article and a link to the article.

The proponents of the Massachusetts reforms
also promised that those reforms would
reduce health care costs. Governor Romney
said that “the cost of health care would be reduced”
and the plan would make health insurance
“affordable” for every Massachusetts citizen.

27

Supporters suggested that the reforms

would reduce the price of individual insurance

policies by 25–40 percent.

28

In reality, insurance premiums rose by 7.4

percent in 2007, 8–12 percent in 2008, and are
expected to rise 9 percent this year.

29 By comparison,

nationwide insurance costs rose by

6.1 percent in 2007, just 4.7 percent in 2008,
and are projected to increase 6.4 percent this
year.

30 On average, health insurance costs

$16,897 for a family of four in Massachusetts,

compared to $12,700 nationally.

31

Boy that sounds just like what the Dems and Obama are saying right now.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf

Oh, your first link was a study done over 6 years ago.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

the people of mn that voted for franken have to be,HAVE TO BE the most retarded people in the entire world.

Well, they also voted in Jesse Ventura, so they can't be that bad.

I think the election of Al Franken says more about Norm Coleman than it does about the voters.