Who Will You Vote For..?

[redrock-skins]

Already voted. Bush helped this country about as much as Spurrier helped the Skins.

[Daseal]

I like a small government that stays out of my business.

Big fan of the Patriot act I see.

I'll try to post a longer, well thought out post (Yeah, Im shocked too!) when I'm not rocking a fever of 101!

Oh, by the way Cpayne. I know last time we talked politics, you hadn't seen F. 9/11 and refused to. Have you, or have you just watched Farenhype 9/11 and blindly arguing for that like you're accusing others of doing the other way around?

[That Guy]

patriot act TIA etc is all crap, but i see nothing that would make me believe kerry would be any better on those fronts either... and that's been the problem i've been having... the things i personally care about that bush sucks at (science/tech laws, privacy), aren't really addressed (since for most people they're very minor issues sadly), and kerry hasn't done anything to make me think he'd be any better.

Whatever, it's all crap, let's bench them all, fire them and start again....

[Daseal]

It's certainly going to be another rebuilding season in America.

[ChounsMan]

Bush is going to drive this country to war again & to the ground after that. He has already requested an addl 75 bil for the dept. of defense (DOD). What do you think this money is being spent on...? Special interests groups linked to the Presidents Admin. will indirectly see this money.

Did you know that the Saudis have 1 trillion dollars in our banks & if they ever decided to remove it our economy would be shattered. Call it what you want, but I call it extortion.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Big fan of the Patriot act I see.

I'll try to post a longer, well thought out post (Yeah, Im shocked too!) when I'm not rocking a fever of 101!

Oh, by the way Cpayne. I know last time we talked politics, you hadn't seen F. 9/11 and refused to. Have you, or have you just watched Farenhype 9/11 and blindly arguing for that like you're accusing others of doing the other way around?

See post #31 in this
thread.
I never once refused to see it. That's putting words in my mouth that I never said.

I'll gladly watch it if you own it and will lend it to me. I am not going to pay to see it, though. That's what I've said all along. I'll let you barrow Fahrenhype 9/11, too - if you like.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by ChounsMan

Did you know that the Saudis have 1 trillion dollars in our banks & if they ever decided to remove it our economy would be shattered. Call it what you want, but I call it extortion.

That 1 trillon figure is a bit high. The highest estimates are in the $860 billion range (most estimates are in the $400-$600 billion range), which is less than 7% of total foreign investments in the US. Yes, pulling 7% of foreign investments out would hurt, but I don't think it would shatter our economy.

[MTK]

cpayne, pulling out 7% would more than just hurt our economy.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

cpayne, pulling out 7% would more than just hurt our economy.

Shatter it though? When I think of our economy being shattered, I think of it being unrecoverable. I think we could recover from 7%. 7% is a high number with their investments being a rather high number at $860 billion. Like I said, most estimates are in the $400-600 billion range, which would put their investments in the range of 3.25-4.8% of total US foreign investments.

The $860 billion figure comes from the book(House of Bush, House of Saud) of the author (Craig Unger) michael moore interviews. The book lists two sources, one of which actually has that figure.

[MTK]

I'm not saying it would shatter the economy, I just thought you were underestimating how much 7% of the economy really is.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm not saying it would shatter the economy, I just thought you were underestimating how much 7% of the economy really is.

Oh, sorry about that. I couldn't think of a word between hurt and shatter, I guess.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by ChounsMan

Bush is going to drive this country to war again & to the ground after that. He has already requested an addl 75 bil for the dept. of defense (DOD). What do you think this money is being spent on...? Special interests groups linked to the Presidents Admin. will indirectly see this money.

Did you know that the Saudis have 1 trillion dollars in our banks & if they ever decided to remove it our economy would be shattered. Call it what you want, but I call it extortion.

Regardless of the accuracy of this figure and w/out regard to the uniformity of these investments (i.e. assume "the Saudis" will w/draw or keep their investments as a unit and not act independently of each other) - Is it your contention that the Saudis are actually contemplating w/drawing these sums? Or are threatening to do so if we do not act in their interest? If so, what effect do you expect the election of Kerry to have? Will he a) continue to act under the threat of w/drawal? or b) refuse to do so and have the Saudis w/draw the funds, thus "shattering" the US economy?

As for the additional expenses, Kerry has promised to send an additional 40,000 men to Iraq. Hmmm, pay more to build infrastructure - Send more americans to be killed. Tough choice.

[Big C]

Originally Posted by That Guy

great post JR

just like to point out as far as vietnam, we won militarily... it was a war where we weren't allowed to take out supply trails, weren't allowed to stop border crossings, weren't willing to fight (draftees forced to fight), etc...

When we went in i really thought it was rushed because bush had a vendetta against saddam (who tried to kill his father)... but i really believe he wanted to get rid of saddam for because of some moral sense of righteousness than any nefarious intents...

unlike korea, saddam had killed massive amounts of its own civillian population (with a potential WoMD (chemical gas), had invaded foreign countries, and had tried to kill foreign leaders... there were places in iraq that terrorist camps could exist, they (at one point) had a very very large military for the population and a massive system of secret police and toture, and had continued to buy military gear and support against sanctions... human rights and sanctions violations aside, they did possess a legitimate military threat to all neighboring countries...

they problem we have now is that rebuilding an occupied country is hard, especially without the support of the local population (and besides japan and the phillipines (both supportive populations), our track record is BAD)... and if we pull out now, there's a huge chance of anarchy followed by either another tyrant or a militant islamic state, both vitriolic in their hatred of the US... (ie, will have gone from bad to worse)... its not like we can just pull out and pretend it never happened.

in north korea, they are starving their ppl, most do not have electricity...the average height for a person is nearly a foot less than in south korea because of the malnutrition. all of the food goes to the army. the dictator there is arguable more insane than sadaam was. Also, people dont seem to get that sadaam and osama bin ladin are total opposites. sadaam is secular, and osama is a radical muslim. that is huge, because everything osama did was for his religion, and in defense of his god. one could argue that WE, america harbor terrorists, albeit unintentionally (by living in our towns, staying in our hospitals, etc.). Just because they are within borders, does not mean that we are supporting them...

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Big C

in north korea, they are starving their ppl, most do not have electricity...the average height for a person is nearly a foot less than in south korea because of the malnutrition. all of the food goes to the army. the dictator there is arguable more insane than sadaam was. Also, people dont seem to get that sadaam and osama bin ladin are total opposites. sadaam is secular, and osama is a radical muslim. that is huge, because everything osama did was for his religion, and in defense of his god.

Like someone else said, N Korea is being backed by China, who just happens to have a few billion people right next to N Korea, along w/ weapons. If something happens there, that will be a huge mess (exponentially worse than anything you could imagine Iraq being at the moment).

Originally Posted by Big C

one could argue that WE, america harbor terrorists, albeit unintentionally (by living in our towns, staying in our hospitals, etc.). Just because they are within borders, does not mean that we are supporting them...

We are actively trying to catch the terrorists, while Saddam was not.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Big C

in north korea, they are starving their ppl, most do not have electricity...the average height for a person is nearly a foot less than in south korea because of the malnutrition. all of the food goes to the army. the dictator there is arguable more insane than sadaam was. Also, people dont seem to get that sadaam and osama bin ladin are total opposites. sadaam is secular, and osama is a radical muslim. that is huge, because everything osama did was for his religion, and in defense of his god. one could argue that WE, america harbor terrorists, albeit unintentionally (by living in our towns, staying in our hospitals, etc.). Just because they are within borders, does not mean that we are supporting them...

And your point about N. Korea is ...? They are a threat to world stability b/c of their horrible economic conditions? That we should invade even though the country is incapable of supporting any sort of sustained offensive?

Yes.. Saddam, originally and through the Baathists, was a secular ruler. In his final years, however, SH played heavily on his Sunni origins and invoked Allah as a political prop. Certainly, whether driven there by UN sanctions or through political opportunism, SH was beginning to develop contacts with Al Queada in the lead up to the US invasion.

Finally, it is absurd to equate the presence of terrorists in america as "harboring them". While SH may not have been an active supporter of Al Queada, he most assuredly did play the "hear no evil, see no evil" routine with terrorists living in his borders. Unlike most allied countries, SH did expel terrorists within his own borders or to prosecute them.

As a word of advice, I suggest that, if you do know the location of any al-queada operatives, you turn them over to your local authorities.