Preston Smith

[sevier2]

Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever

You're right. A good 3-4 DE can be found in the draft in the late rounds....and this particular football player would have a much higher motor than Jason Hatcher!

I don't know about higher motor, Hatch has always been a hustler who's known for his effort.

Better knees? Yeah you could find those for cheap in the draft.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

too me it makes zero fucking sense in one breath to say hey let's keep the weak link on the Oline and in the other breath say hey lets get rid of our best d-lineman.

Setting aside the Kory bashing, which I don't agree with you on at all, I have to challenge this asinine shit. Hatcher was nowhere near our best lineman, Chris Baker was.

Sacks: Hatcher 2, Baker 6
Tackles: Hatcher 20, Baker 53
Forced Fumbles: Hatcher 1, Baker 3

Ricky Jean had basically the same production as Hatcher in half the snaps. RJF had 26 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1 forced fumble.

I understand stats are an incomplete measure of D-line play. But Baker whips Hatcher on the eye test any day of the week. And I would say Knighton was generally more impactful than Hatcher. You didn't see Hatcher getting double teamed often, you saw Knighton draw it all the time.

I would say Hatcher was our least valuable starting defensive lineman this year. I think Hatcher on the eye test was better than RJF but it's not that cut and dry.

He's in severe decline. Three years ago with Dallas he had 11 sacks. Down to 6 last year. And 2 this year, despite playing in a one-gap that should have suited him much better.

Now let's talk about the cap space issue. Hatcher takes up $8.7M next year, cutting him would save $4.25M. Meanwhile Kory takes up only $4.0M, and cutting him saves us $3.0M. Cutting Hatcher gives you space to sign a starting caliber player, cutting Kory gives you the space to sign an average starting center in the NFL... like Kory Lichtensteiger.

[NoCalHail]

The issue with Hatcher is he shouldn't be an every down DE anymore. If we could find someone else to take most the snaps, and then insert Hatcher on obvious passing downs, I think his production could increase because he'd be saving what's left in the tanks merely to go after the QB.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Setting aside the Kory bashing, which I don't agree with you on at all, I have to challenge this asinine shit. Hatcher was nowhere near our best lineman, Chris Baker was.

Sacks: Hatcher 2, Baker 6
Tackles: Hatcher 20, Baker 53
Forced Fumbles: Hatcher 1, Baker 3

Ricky Jean had basically the same production as Hatcher in half the snaps. RJF had 26 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1 forced fumble.

I understand stats are an incomplete measure of D-line play. But Baker whips Hatcher on the eye test any day of the week. And I would say Knighton was generally more impactful than Hatcher. You didn't see Hatcher getting double teamed often, you saw Knighton draw it all the time.

I would say Hatcher was our least valuable starting defensive lineman this year. I think Hatcher on the eye test was better than RJF but it's not that cut and dry.

He's in severe decline. Three years ago with Dallas he had 11 sacks. Down to 6 last year. And 2 this year, despite playing in a one-gap that should have suited him much better.

Now, since you seem to have trouble counting, let's talk about the cap space issue. Hatcher takes up $8.7M next year, cutting him would save $4.5M. Meanwhile Kory takes up only $4.0M, and cutting him only saves us $1.0M. Cutting Hatcher gives you space to sign a starting caliber player, cutting Kory gives you the space to sign somebody like Adam Hayward, a special teams stalwart but not much else.

So do you know what you're talking about, like at all?

And here's Schneed after writing this post:

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

Would you go after Eric Berry??

I would consider that, but my approach would not be to gear up Redskins One to sign him at 12:01 on the dawn of free agency, that's when you overpay. I would wait for the market to come to me, and in all likelihood Berry will have been snatched up by somebody on the first day of free agency, if the Chiefs even let him get there.

So I would be unlikely to pay what it takes to get him. I'd rather wait, let the market set itself, then try to make a value play.

I'd retain Goldson instead. He was solid for us and is a strong & respected leader. I would only rework his deal if I thought I really needed the cap space, and I'm not sure we will. Goldson counts $8M on the cap next year, but keep in mind Jairus Byrd counts $11M, Earl Thomas counts $10M, and Eric Weddle (pending free agent) counted $10M last year. Berry himself counted $11.6M in 2014.

So while Goldson is fairly pricey you have to be careful what you wish for. If you want to replace Goldson with Berry it will cost you a few more million in cap space, and you'd have a disruption in the locker room with a new face coming in while you lose one of the most respected players in there.

My rule is simple - draft draft draft. Very little big guaranteed money to players advanced in their primes.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by NoCalHail

The issue with Hatcher is he shouldn't be an every down DE anymore. If we could find someone else to take most the snaps, and then insert Hatcher on obvious passing downs, I think his production could increase because he'd be saving what's left in the tanks merely to go after the QB.

Fine plan. But you'd never pay $8.7M in cap space for that, not when you could cut him to gain $4.5M. If this was my plan as McCloughan and Gruden, I would insist on a paycut or peace out.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I would consider that, but my approach would not be to gear up Redskins One to sign him at 12:01 on the dawn of free agency, that's when you overpay. I would wait for the market to come to me, and in all likelihood Berry will have been snatched up by somebody on the first day of free agency, if the Chiefs even let him get there.

So I would be unlikely to pay what it takes to get him. I'd rather wait, let the market set itself, then try to make a value play.

I'd retain Goldson instead. He was solid for us and is a strong & respected leader. I would only rework his deal if I thought I really needed the cap space, and I'm not sure we will. Goldson counts $8M on the cap next year, but keep in mind Jairus Byrd counts $11M, Earl Thomas counts $10M, and Eric Weddle (pending free agent) counted $10M last year. Berry himself counted $11.6M in 2014.

So while Goldson is fairly pricey you have to be careful what you wish for. If you want to replace Goldson with Berry it will cost you a few more million in cap space, and you'd have a disruption in the locker room with a new face coming in while you lose one of the most respected players in there.

My rule is simple - draft draft draft. Very little big guaranteed money to players advanced in their primes.

I agree.
great post.

[Irrefutable]

Cutting Kory L saves $3 million. He can be replaced by a free agent center for about the same amount.

Cutting Hatcher saves $4 million. He can be replaced with a first round pick from Alabama for about $2 million.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Irrefutable

Cutting Kory L saves $3 million. He can be replaced by a free agent center for about the same amount.

Cutting Hatcher saves $4 million. He can be replaced with a first round pick from Alabama for about $2 million.

You're right, apparently I can't count. I just went back and reread the schedule and realized I had pulled from the wrong column. Cutting Hatcher saves exactly $4.25M next year, cutting Kory would save $2.95M.

That could maybe make you think about doing something with Kory but his performance was solid this year, nothing that would make me go OH MY GOD WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT $3M IN SPACE.

$3M won't buy you a world beater at center. It will buy you an average one. Like Kory.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Setting aside the Kory bashing, which I don't agree with you on at all, I have to challenge this asinine shit. Hatcher was nowhere near our best lineman, Chris Baker was.

Sacks: Hatcher 2, Baker 6
Tackles: Hatcher 20, Baker 53
Forced Fumbles: Hatcher 1, Baker 3

Ricky Jean had basically the same production as Hatcher in half the snaps. RJF had 26 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1 forced fumble.

I understand stats are an incomplete measure of D-line play. But Baker whips Hatcher on the eye test any day of the week. And I would say Knighton was generally more impactful than Hatcher. You didn't see Hatcher getting double teamed often, you saw Knighton draw it all the time.

I would say Hatcher was our least valuable starting defensive lineman this year. I think Hatcher on the eye test was better than RJF but it's not that cut and dry.

He's in severe decline. Three years ago with Dallas he had 11 sacks. Down to 6 last year. And 2 this year, despite playing in a one-gap that should have suited him much better.

Now let's talk about the cap space issue. Hatcher takes up $8.7M next year, cutting him would save $4.25M. Meanwhile Kory takes up only $4.0M, and cutting him saves us $3.0M. Cutting Hatcher gives you space to sign a starting caliber player, cutting Kory gives you the space to sign an average starting center in the NFL... like Kory Lichtensteiger.

You know I went back and looked at recent grades from the website I use and Chris Baker is our highest rated D-lineman. Hatcher and Pot Roast actually grade at 75 and 74.6. Baker at 83.2 which is 21st overall in the league. But the ironic thing you kinda hounded on pass rush, Hatcher graded slightly higher than Baker, but Baker set the edge and kills it in the running game. All our D-lineman actually grade decent. So in regards to the one sentence of my argument of who the actual best Dlineman is, your right, Chris Baker. Baker does pass the eye test...in fact all our D-Line pass the eye test. And bring up the Dallas stats...in a different role, in a different system...really.

But you and I both know that really wasn't what my post was about.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

You know I went back and looked at recent grades from the website I use and Chris Baker is our highest rated D-lineman. Hatcher and Pot Roast actually grade at 75 and 74.6. Baker at 83.2 which is 21st overall in the league. But the ironic thing you kinda hounded on pass rush, Hatcher graded slightly higher than Baker, but Baker set the edge and kills it in the running game. All our D-lineman actually grade decent. So in regards to the one sentence of my argument of who the actual best Dlineman is, your right, Chris Baker. Baker does pass the eye test...in fact all our D-Line pass the eye test. And bring up the Dallas stats...in a different role, in a different system...really.

But you and I both know that really wasn't what my post was about.

... in a different time

Dude's too old and he has balky knees. If we don't need the cap space then I'm fine with keeping him, depth is depth. But he's only declining from here.

[Ruhskins]

I know some of people were not happy when we passed on Leonard Williams, but I found it interesting in comparing Williams' stats with Preston Smith:

L. Williams: 63 tkls (29 solo), 3 sacks
P. Smith: 35 tkls (24 solo), 8 sacks, 3 FF, 1 FR

They are different position, but I'm giving kudos here to SM for getting similar (or better IMO) defensive production in the later rounds.

[MTK]

Heck of a rookie year for Smith. A lot of fans weren't happy with the pick but I guess SM kinda knows what he's doing.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by MTK

Heck of a rookie year for Smith. A lot of fans weren't happy with the pick but I guess SM kinda knows what he's doing.

I think the third year should be a good barometer for judging how good a player is but nowadays we're too impatient. He definitely has come on strong this second half of the year. Hopefully it carries over into next year.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I know some of people were not happy when we passed on Leonard Williams, but I found it interesting in comparing Williams' stats with Preston Smith:

L. Williams: 63 tkls (29 solo), 3 sacks
P. Smith: 35 tkls (24 solo), 8 sacks, 3 FF, 1 FR

They are different position, but I'm giving kudos here to SM for getting similar (or better IMO) defensive production in the later rounds.

williams still did well, so it's not like taking him would have been the wrong move either.

that said, SM has proved that he actually knows what he's doing, so whereas before when when disagreed with a move we assumed vinny was being an idiot, now we have to strongly consider that maybe we're the ones that are wrong.

competent management op. its nice being in week 17 and not discussing who our next HC is going to be or how we need to fix our trainwreck of a team.