Talent Evaluation?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

Couldn't agree more, I know many will disagree but one of the biggest problems I have had with Gibbs is the way he just flat out pushed Ramsey out of the picture without really giving him a fair chance, last season when things became so bad he had no choice but to play Ramsey, Ramsey responded and won the starters job, only to have Gibbs looking for any excuse whatsoever to put in his guy Brunell, pretty lowsey thing to do someone to promise them the starters job all off season and then 1 quarter into first game yank him as if the guy has went 2-5 in his last 7 games. I defiently came away with a different opinion of Gibbs after watching how he handled that situation and it left a bad taste in my mouth, if Ramsey failed, ok he failed, but he deserved the opportunity to go out there and prove it one way or the other.

Yes Brunell has played well when given the time, but considering the state of the team was it really a wise decision to bring in an ageing QB if we are in fact still rebuilding? Wouldn't we be better off right now if Ramsey had been playing over the coarse of the last 2 seasons? If you believe no that's fine, I just believe that Ramsey would have greatly improved his play as he became comfortable in Gibbs system, Just like Brunell.

I would but the blame on three people (in no particular order):

Gibbs-I think it was a mistake for him to declare Ramsey the starter before even mini-camp started. Especially if he knew that Brunell was hurt the past season and that some time to recuperate would help him. He backed himself into an unnecessary corner by declaring Ramsey the starter when I don't think he really believed it. It also brings up the misconception that Gibbs owes something to Ramsey (I'll bring that up later)

Ramsey-In spite of finishing 3-4 as a starter last season, Ramsey did a pretty solid job. However, when he played during the preseason I didn't see someone who was any better than when he left the field against Minnesota to wrap up the 2004 season. I know people say that he wasn't given a fair chance, but I think that he had several months in the offseason to work on basic fundamentals that, in my opinion, he either didn't work on or if he did he didn't improve significantly upon them. Ramsey should have had the mentality "OK, I've been given the starting job and now I'm going to step out on the field and put so much distance between me and the next QB that there's no question I should be the guy"

The Fans-I can understand being frustrated, feeling that Ramsey was perhaps not given a fair chance. But here's the thing, Gibbs owes Ramsey nothing in my opinion. It sounds harsh I know. But when Gibbs was brought here, he was brought here to bring a winner back to DC. I'm pretty sure that Snyder, as much as he may love Ramsey, didn't tell Gibbs to help him bring back a Super Bowl trophy "but make sure Ramsey is a part of it" If Gibbs thinks that the answer is Brunell now and Campbell next year (or the year after) I think that's fine to disagree but I don't think it should be because you think he owes anything to Ramsey. (and offiss, I'm not singling you out here, just happen to be quoting your post)

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I would but the blame on three people (in no particular order):

Gibbs-I think it was a mistake for him to declare Ramsey the starter before even mini-camp started. Especially if he knew that Brunell was hurt the past season and that some time to recuperate would help him. He backed himself into an unnecessary corner by declaring Ramsey the starter when I don't think he really believed it. It also brings up the misconception that Gibbs owes something to Ramsey (I'll bring that up later)

Ramsey-In spite of finishing 3-4 as a starter last season, Ramsey did a pretty solid job. However, when he played during the preseason I didn't see someone who was any better than when he left the field against Minnesota to wrap up the 2004 season. I know people say that he wasn't given a fair chance, but I think that he had several months in the offseason to work on basic fundamentals that, in my opinion, he either didn't work on or if he did he didn't improve significantly upon them. Ramsey should have had the mentality "OK, I've been given the starting job and now I'm going to step out on the field and put so much distance between me and the next QB that there's no question I should be the guy"

The Fans-I can understand being frustrated, feeling that Ramsey was perhaps not given a fair chance. But here's the thing, Gibbs owes Ramsey nothing in my opinion. It sounds harsh I know. But when Gibbs was brought here, he was brought here to bring a winner back to DC. I'm pretty sure that Snyder, as much as he may love Ramsey, didn't tell Gibbs to help him bring back a Super Bowl trophy "but make sure Ramsey is a part of it" If Gibbs thinks that the answer is Brunell now and Campbell next year (or the year after) I think that's fine to disagree but I don't think it should be because you think he owes anything to Ramsey. (and offiss, I'm not singling you out here, just happen to be quoting your post)

DEAD ON!!!
I really don't get the personal thing people read into this issue. I have read , heard, seen nothing that would suggest Gibbs is about, or would tolerate that sort of thing. Gibbs is about delivering results, or putting the best guys on the field to try to deliver results. To suggest otherwise, is absurd!

CHECK OUT THE TONY MCGEE THREAD IN THIS FORUM! VERY HONEST ANSWERS FROM A VET!!!!!!!!

[offiss]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I would but the blame on three people (in no particular order):

Gibbs-I think it was a mistake for him to declare Ramsey the starter before even mini-camp started. Especially if he knew that Brunell was hurt the past season and that some time to recuperate would help him. He backed himself into an unnecessary corner by declaring Ramsey the starter when I don't think he really believed it. It also brings up the misconception that Gibbs owes something to Ramsey (I'll bring that up later)

Ramsey-In spite of finishing 3-4 as a starter last season, Ramsey did a pretty solid job. However, when he played during the preseason I didn't see someone who was any better than when he left the field against Minnesota to wrap up the 2004 season. I know people say that he wasn't given a fair chance, but I think that he had several months in the offseason to work on basic fundamentals that, in my opinion, he either didn't work on or if he did he didn't improve significantly upon them. Ramsey should have had the mentality "OK, I've been given the starting job and now I'm going to step out on the field and put so much distance between me and the next QB that there's no question I should be the guy"

The Fans-I can understand being frustrated, feeling that Ramsey was perhaps not given a fair chance. But here's the thing, Gibbs owes Ramsey nothing in my opinion. It sounds harsh I know. But when Gibbs was brought here, he was brought here to bring a winner back to DC. I'm pretty sure that Snyder, as much as he may love Ramsey, didn't tell Gibbs to help him bring back a Super Bowl trophy "but make sure Ramsey is a part of it" If Gibbs thinks that the answer is Brunell now and Campbell next year (or the year after) I think that's fine to disagree but I don't think it should be because you think he owes anything to Ramsey. (and offiss, I'm not singling you out here, just happen to be quoting your post)

We would then have to ask what does he owe Brunell if he was brought here to win? Because that clearly has not happened under Brunell, the state of our team right now is not a state of progress, this team is regressing.

The question is why did Gibbs name Ramsey the starter to begin with? I believe the reason was he looked 1000 times better than Brunell last season.

It's funny how Gibbs keeps insisting that the reason Brunell failed last season is because of his injury, even though Brunell had his best game of the year the week after, it's also ironic that Brunell has stated that his injury was not a factor, in fact he has said his inability to produce last season was because he didn't have much help surrounding him.

Eventually we will learn when Ramsey gets dealt whether or not he can play, as for Brunell where are we really going with him, I have to hope that Gibbs didn't give away next years draft for a QB who's going to be holding a clipboard for 3 years?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

We would then have to ask what does he owe Brunell if he was brought here to win? Because that clearly has not happened under Brunell, the state of our team right now is not a state of progress, this team is regressing.

The question is why did Gibbs name Ramsey the starter to begin with? I believe the reason was he looked 1000 times better than Brunell last season.

What is your point? Of course that is why Ramsey was named the starter, and lost his job this year because he didn't show the same improvement this year as he did last year. It's not that difficult to understand.

What is the fascination over Patrick Ramsey?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

What is your point? Of course that is why Ramsey was named the starter, and lost his job this year because he didn't show the same improvement this year as he did last year. It's not that difficult to understand.

What is the fascination over Patrick Ramsey?

The backup QB is always the most popular QB in town because he hasn't had the chance to mess things up. So of course we like to daydream about what could have been, rather than face the reality that if he was good enough to hold the job he'd be starting all along.

But that can be easily countered by the old reliable conspiracy theories. The coaches don't like him. They like Brunell because he's a fine, church going fella. Brunell is the starter because they have more money tied up in him. Ramsey wasn't given a "fair shake", despite having the entire offseason and preseason to cement himself as the unquestioned #1.

Just remember, when in doubt blame Brunell and wonder WWRD.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

What is your point? Of course that is why Ramsey was named the starter, and lost his job this year because he didn't show the same improvement this year as he did last year. It's not that difficult to understand.

What is the fascination over Patrick Ramsey?

What is the fascination over Brunell? Certainly not our win-lose record under him?

So what did you see out of Ramsey that 1st quarter against the bears that lead you to the conclusion that Ramsey is garbage?

I guess you want to point out the pre-season where Ramsey was facing NFL starters, with brand new WR's, and Brunell was facing the UPS loading dock crew.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by offiss

So what did you see out of Ramsey that 1st quarter against the bears that lead you to the conclusion that Ramsey is garbage?

How about a sparkling 49.4 QB rating with an INT and 2 fumbles for starters?

I guess you want to point out the pre-season where Ramsey was facing NFL starters, with brand new WR's, and Brunell was facing the UPS loading dock crew.

So why did Ramsey struggle so mightily in the preseason with the new group of guys around him on offense, yet Brunell was able to step right in and post QB ratings of at least 81.5 and 2 games over 100 in his first 5 starts?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

How about a sparkling 49.4 QB rating with an INT and 2 fumbles for starters?



So why did Ramsey struggle so mightily in the preseason with the new group of guys around him on offense, yet Brunell was able to step right in and post QB ratings of at least 81.5 and 2 games over 100 in his first 5 starts?

What was his rating after the first 2 games?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by offiss

What was his rating after the first 2 games?

After the first two games it was 82.3, after his first two starts it was 87.8... I don't see your point. :confused:

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

How about a sparkling 49.4 QB rating with an INT and 2 fumbles for starters?



So why did Ramsey struggle so mightily in the preseason with the new group of guys around him on offense, yet Brunell was able to step right in and post QB ratings of at least 81.5 and 2 games over 100 in his first 5 starts?

I seem to remember pointing this out when Ramsey was stinking it up during preseason when it was actually happening. But everyone said I was "rushing to judgment."

Interesting.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I seem to remember pointing this out when Ramsey was stinking it up during preseason when it was actually happening. But everyone said I was "rushing to judgment."

Interesting.

Yup, you did rush to judgment. I really don't care what people say about Ramsey's stats. People who are citing his stats obviously haven't been listening to what a lot of people like myself have been saying. I am not saying that Ramsey would have done better than Brunell this season. He probably would not have done better. BUT, in the long run, I think he's the better option.

People here in D.C. don't give you any chances. We rushed Ramsey like a bunch of fantasy owner, Madden-playing impatient Snyderitos. When we dump him and Brunell is too old to play, we'll go through yet another growing season with Campbell (aka losing season).

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

What is the fascination over Brunell? Certainly not our win-lose record under him?

So what did you see out of Ramsey that 1st quarter against the bears that lead you to the conclusion that Ramsey is garbage?

I guess you want to point out the pre-season where Ramsey was facing NFL starters, with brand new WR's, and Brunell was facing the UPS loading dock crew.

First of all, I never said Ramsey is garbage. I never made that comment. I have stated repeatedly that I think Ramsey is a good guy and going to be a decent QB in the league, but he hasn't developed the tools for it just yet. I also added that I believe he'll be a late bloomer quarterback that will have his best years after he's been in the league for several seasons. Right now, Ramsey has not proven himself to be the go to guy yet. That is why I ask, what is the fascination about Patrick Ramsey other than this dream of what you hope he will be, but not what he is presently.

Don't give me that crap about Ramsey had to face starters in the preseason and attempt to use that as a valid excuse as to why he isn't the starter. Ramsey is suppose to play against starters during the regular season. Using that excuse only further proves the point that he isn't ready to start for the Redskins. Secondly, Mark Brunell has not only proven himself renewed from preseason, but he has played pretty well this whole season. I'm not suggesting he has played flawlessly, but his overall play has been more than good to justify him being in the starting lineup over Patrick Ramsey. If it was Ramsey that proved himself the man, I'd support him. The bottom line is, I want this team to win, and at this moment, Mark Brunell gives us the best chance at doing so. If Patrick Ramsey comes in and proves me wrong...by all means I will root for him to do so.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

First of all, I never said Ramsey is garbage. I never made that comment. I have stated repeatedly that I think Ramsey is a good guy and going to be a decent QB in the league, but he hasn't developed the tools for it just yet. I also added that I believe he'll be a late bloomer quarterback that will have his best years after he's been in the league for several seasons. Right now, Ramsey has not proven himself to be the go to guy yet. That is why I ask, what is the fascination about Patrick Ramsey other than this dream of what you hope he will be, but not what he is presently.

Don't give me that crap about Ramsey had to face starters in the preseason and attempt to use that as a valid excuse as to why he isn't the starter. Ramsey is suppose to play against starters during the regular season. Using that excuse only further proves the point that he isn't ready to start for the Redskins. Secondly, Mark Brunell has not only proven himself renewed from preseason, but he has played pretty well this whole season. I'm not suggesting he has played flawlessly, but his overall play has been more than good to justify him being in the starting lineup over Patrick Ramsey. If it was Ramsey that proved himself the man, I'd support him. The bottom line is, I want this team to win, and at this moment, Mark Brunell gives us the best chance at doing so. If Patrick Ramsey comes in and proves me wrong...by all means I will root for him to do so.

So you don't believe that the possibility exists that the reason defenses stack the D-lines and shut down the running game has nothing to do with Brunells inability to throw the ball downfield with any kind of velocity?

Plenty of QB's in this league can dink and dunk which is what we do for the most part, there are plenty of stats to point to for both sides of the issue but the bottom line is we are not winning, and the last 3 games were absolutly winnable, as it was stated somewhere, we came from ahead to lose another one late, Brunell if he is the man, and the QB to lead us to a SB, then he has to pull those games out, there was nothing monumental he had to do to win any of those games, he was in a position to make a difference and FAILED!

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

So you don't believe that the possibility exists that the reason defenses stack the D-lines and shut down the running game has nothing to do with Brunells inability to throw the ball downfield with any kind of velocity?

Plenty of QB's in this league can dink and dunk which is what we do for the most part, there are plenty of stats to point to for both sides of the issue but the bottom line is we are not winning, and the last 3 games were absolutly winnable, as it was stated somewhere, we came from ahead to lose another one late, Brunell if he is the man, and the QB to lead us to a SB, then he has to pull those games out, there was nothing monumental he had to do to win any of those games, he was in a position to make a difference and FAILED!

You do realize this is season 2005, not season 2004? I have no idea where you coming from with this we never go deep excuse. You know that is nothing but garbage. I honestly believe you're going back and arguing about last year. I suppose it makes sense to throw it deep even though the receivers are double covered - yeah that's brilliant!

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

First of all, I never said Ramsey is garbage. I never made that comment. I have stated repeatedly that I think Ramsey is a good guy and going to be a decent QB in the league, but he hasn't developed the tools for it just yet. I also added that I believe he'll be a late bloomer quarterback that will have his best years after he's been in the league for several seasons.

Gee, I wonder why he hasn't developed the tools just yet?

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Mark Brunell has not only proven himself renewed from preseason, but he has played pretty well this whole season. I'm not suggesting he has played flawlessly, but his overall play has been more than good to justify him being in the starting lineup over Patrick Ramsey. If it was Ramsey that proved himself the man, I'd support him. The bottom line is, I want this team to win, and at this moment, Mark Brunell gives us the best chance at doing so. If Patrick Ramsey comes in and proves me wrong...by all means I will root for him to do so.

Mark Brunell does give us the best chance to win now; that's why he should remain the starter until we are definately out of the playoffs. But, at some point, when you know that the season is lost, shouldn't we look towards the future. Anyone who thinks Brunell is the future better have some miracle drugs to give him because he'll turn 36 next season.