Wynn restructures

[FRPLG]

What it comes down to is:

Can Wynn be replaced with someone who could do just as good a job for less money?

No one has presented any type of decent argument that he could.

Beem I never saw TMC say Wynn was "dominating". What he said was that for the price we were getting a leader and a guy who does a solid if unspectacular job. You seem to think we can magically find some "young and hungry" players to do the same thing and I would say to you that of all the DL taken in this years draft maybe 15 will ever be better than Wynn is now. Wynn is certainly only average but average is better than 50% of the league. There aren't some magical young players out there to come in and do what they want him to do while also offering the leadership.

I don't think he is off the hook I simply think many value some of his more intangible contributions while I think you are undervaluing his on field contributions.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

What it comes down to is:

Can Wynn be replaced with someone who could do just as good a job for less money?

No one has presented any type of decent argument that he could.

Beem I never saw TMC say Wynn was "dominating". What he said was that for the price we were getting a leader and a guy who does a solid if unspectacular job. You seem to think we can magically find some "young and hungry" players to do the same thing and I would say to you that of all the DL taken in this years draft maybe 15 will ever be better than Wynn is now. Wynn is certainly only average but average is better than 50% of the league. There aren't some magical young players out there to come in and do what they want him to do while also offering the leadership.

I don't think he is off the hook I simply think many value some of his more intangible contributions while I think you are undervaluing his on field contributions.

The fact is, we won’t ever get to find out if someone less expensive could be found to replace Wynn because this team doesn’t see the need to get such a player. It’s my contention that just about any other team with a half-way decent front office could find someone who could give us more production. Now, judging by the record of this organization, I can actually understand how people here would doubt that this franchise could do it. My argument is, that player is out there – – whether Gibbs, Williams, or Cerrato can find him is another matter.

The “leadership” thing is overrated. We saw what Renaldo’s great locker room leadership got us last year. I think that’s more fanspeak. People throw around the “leadership” word without really ever stopping to examine exactly what it means. What counts is production on the field. If Wynn were the type of player that the fans here have spent over 80 posts trying to convince everyone that he really is, then he’d still be starting. I believe this is just another demonstration of blinding loyalty to a player whose mystical, yet bogus contributions in the locker room far exceed any rational observation of his actual abilities on the field.

And it’s exactly that type of mentality that keeps this team in the losing column. Too many people in Redskin Park (and apparently here at the Warpath) favor loyalty and “locker room leadership” over results.

That sort of mindset couldn’t cut it anywhere else.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

The fact is, we won’t ever get to find out if someone less expensive could be found to replace Wynn because this team doesn’t see the need to get such a player. It’s my contention that just about any other team with a half-way decent front office could find someone who could give us more production. Now, judging by the record of this organization, I can actually understand how people here would doubt that this franchise could do it. My argument is, that player is out there – – whether Gibbs, Williams, or Cerrato can find him is another matter.

The “leadership” thing is overrated. We saw what Renaldo’s great locker room leadership got us last year. I think that’s more fanspeak. People throw around the “leadership” word without really ever stopping to examine exactly what it means. What counts is production on the field. If Wynn were the type of player that the fans here have spent over 80 posts trying to convince everyone that he really is, then he’d still be starting. I believe this is just another demonstration of blinding loyalty to a player whose mystical, yet bogus contributions in the locker room far exceed any rational observation of his actual abilities on the field.

And it’s exactly that type of mentality that keeps this team in the losing column. Too many people in Redskin Park (and apparently here at the Warpath) favor loyalty and “locker room leadership” over results.

That sort of mindset couldn’t cut it anywhere else.

Good post.

I still think Wynn has some value as a strategic, 15-20 snap guy used on rushing downs. I'm glad he restructured for the good of the team. He deserves the utmost respect from us.

But Beems is right, having guys like Wynn and Daniels around does NOT make it excusable to ignore your defensive line.

We have a plethora of average D Linemen. We need to add a stud to take the next step.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

The fact is, we won’t ever get to find out if someone less expensive could be found to replace Wynn because this team doesn’t see the need to get such a player. It’s my contention that just about any other team with a half-way decent front office could find someone who could give us more production. Now, judging by the record of this organization, I can actually understand how people here would doubt that this franchise could do it. My argument is, that player is out there – – whether Gibbs, Williams, or Cerrato can find him is another matter.

I think we'll just disagree on this. It is a subjective argument really.

The “leadership” thing is overrated. We saw what Renaldo’s great locker room leadership got us last year. I think that’s more fanspeak. People throw around the “leadership” word without really ever stopping to examine exactly what it means. What counts is production on the field. If Wynn were the type of player that the fans here have spent over 80 posts trying to convince everyone that he really is, then he’d still be starting. I believe this is just another demonstration of blinding loyalty to a player whose mystical, yet bogus contributions in the locker room far exceed any rational observation of his actual abilities on the field.

But on this I am simply stumped. For some reason "leadership" is valued in this LEAGUE. Not just on this team but in this LEAGUE. That is not a Skinscentric thing. By no means did I mean to say we should keep him for only "leadership" abilities. It is my contention that he does an average job playing-wise. By average I mean solid enough that finding a BETTER option would not be considered 'real easy' nor 'real hard'. I also contend that beyond his playing abilities he brings intangibles that have a positive impact on the team. No one has argued against this. It may have been argued how much he truely impacts the team positively but no one has argued that he does not have these intangibles at all. Your contention that his "leadership" did nothing for this team though is false logic. You implied that it had nothing to do with the record at all. That it had zero effect on the play of this team. How have you drawn this conclusion? For all we know we were a 2 win team that was led by guys like Wynn to an extra 3 wins. Hell maybe we were an 8 win team held back by the leadership. I have no idea since I was not in the locker room but I highly doubt any amount of quality "leadership" would cause a net loss of games. To assert that our record reflects the importance of such "leadership" is to ignore the overwhelming evidence that we had other issues that were insurmountable and that they were far more likely the cause of our 5-11 season. Not his "leadership" or lack of talent. We did not lose 11 games because Wynn can't play. It is silly to argue that "leadership" has no value when it is a common trait saught by NFL teams.

"leadership" is obviously not the be all/end all but it is one trait that teams look for. Solid guys who lead by example absolutely do positively impact a team. Anyone who has ever played an organized sport has experienced this. Obviously results on the field are what matters but having guys like Wynn can lead to better results on field. If Sean Taylor sees Wynn being a professional guy and putting his all into all the little details and he says to himself "Gee, that guy isn't the most talented in the world but he has stuck around. Maybe if I stepped up and did some things like him I could be even better than I am." then Wynn has contributed to the on field product.

If there were clearly better talent options out there then yeah we could probably stand to lose Wynn's "leadership" in favor of some more talent at the right price. But I am no where near convinced that there is someone out there who gives this team the value for the money now that he has restructured.

Is your contention that "leadership" is simply worthless or just way over-valued? If it is just over-valued then how do you rectify that teams league wide value it?

And it’s exactly that type of mentality that keeps this team in the losing column. Too many people in Redskin Park (and apparently here at the Warpath) favor loyalty and “locker room leadership” over results.

This is just silly. We obviously have more than just this one problem. Hell I know you've argued about other problems that this team has had.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

But on this I am simply stumped. For some reason "leadership" is valued in this LEAGUE. Not just on this team but in this LEAGUE. That is not a Skinscentric thing. By no means did I mean to say we should keep him for only "leadership" abilities. It is my contention that he does an average job playing-wise. By average I mean solid enough that finding a BETTER option would not be considered 'real easy' nor 'real hard'. I also contend that beyond his playing abilities he brings intangibles that have a positive impact on the team. No one has argued against this. It may have been argued how much he truely impacts the team positively but no one has argued that he does not have these intangibles at all. Your contention that his "leadership" did nothing for this team though is false logic. You implied that it had nothing to do with the record at all. That it had zero effect on the play of this team. How have you drawn this conclusion? For all we know we were a 2 win team that was led by guys like Wynn to an extra 3 wins. Hell maybe we were an 8 win team held back by the leadership. I have no idea since I was not in the locker room but I highly doubt any amount of quality "leadership" would cause a net loss of games. To assert that our record reflects the importance of such "leadership" is to ignore the overwhelming evidence that we had other issues that were insurmountable and that they were far more likely the cause of our 5-11 season. Not his "leadership" or lack of talent. We did not lose 11 games because Wynn can't play. It is silly to argue that "leadership" has no value when it is a common trait saught by NFL teams.

"leadership" is obviously not the be all/end all but it is one trait that teams look for. Solid guys who lead by example absolutely do positively impact a team. Anyone who has ever played an organized sport has experienced this. Obviously results on the field are what matters but having guys like Wynn can lead to better results on field. If Sean Taylor sees Wynn being a professional guy and putting his all into all the little details and he says to himself "Gee, that guy isn't the most talented in the world but he has stuck around. Maybe if I stepped up and did some things like him I could be even better than I am." then Wynn has contributed to the on field product.

I think you are misunderstanding Beems, FRPLG. As I understand it, his arguement is that "additional wins provided by Renaldo Wynn's leadership=0". I don't think he's saying that Wynn's leadership was responsible for a 5 win season.

For all of his leadership, it's likely not going to change our record any. But Wynn is a good character guy, who still does a lot of things well on the field. However, his value to this team is not a whole lot more than any old waiver wire dude we could get to replace him who may or may not provide leadership.

Does this mean we should up and replace Wynn? No, of course not! But it means that having Wynn and Daniels around does not mean our future DL situation is secure.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I think we'll just disagree on this. It is a subjective argument really.


But on this I am simply stumped. For some reason "leadership" is valued in this LEAGUE. Not just on this team but in this LEAGUE. That is not a Skinscentric thing. By no means did I mean to say we should keep him for only "leadership" abilities. It is my contention that he does an average job playing-wise. By average I mean solid enough that finding a BETTER option would not be considered 'real easy' nor 'real hard'. I also contend that beyond his playing abilities he brings intangibles that have a positive impact on the team. No one has argued against this. It may have been argued how much he truely impacts the team positively but no one has argued that he does not have these intangibles at all. Your contention that his "leadership" did nothing for this team though is false logic. You implied that it had nothing to do with the record at all. That it had zero effect on the play of this team. How have you drawn this conclusion? For all we know we were a 2 win team that was led by guys like Wynn to an extra 3 wins. Hell maybe we were an 8 win team held back by the leadership. I have no idea since I was not in the locker room but I highly doubt any amount of quality "leadership" would cause a net loss of games. To assert that our record reflects the importance of such "leadership" is to ignore the overwhelming evidence that we had other issues that were insurmountable and that they were far more likely the cause of our 5-11 season. Not his "leadership" or lack of talent. We did not lose 11 games because Wynn can't play. It is silly to argue that "leadership" has no value when it is a common trait saught by NFL teams.

"leadership" is obviously not the be all/end all but it is one trait that teams look for. Solid guys who lead by example absolutely do positively impact a team. Anyone who has ever played an organized sport has experienced this. Obviously results on the field are what matters but having guys like Wynn can lead to better results on field. If Sean Taylor sees Wynn being a professional guy and putting his all into all the little details and he says to himself "Gee, that guy isn't the most talented in the world but he has stuck around. Maybe if I stepped up and did some things like him I could be even better than I am." then Wynn has contributed to the on field product.

If there were clearly better talent options out there then yeah we could probably stand to lose Wynn's "leadership" in favor of some more talent at the right price. But I am no where near convinced that there is someone out there who gives this team the value for the money now that he has restructured.

Is your contention that "leadership" is simply worthless or just way over-valued? If it is just over-valued then how do you rectify that teams league wide value it?


This is just silly. We obviously have more than just this one problem. Hell I know you've argued about other problems that this team has had.

Ok, I'm about as over it as Renaldo Wynn is in arguing this point. If you see Renaldo Wynn as a field general who inspires and leads the troops into battle while still able to make some contributions himself, fine.

I think he's done, I think HE thinks he's done and knows he wouldn't be invited to any other training camp in the league. So he gladly accepts the pay cut, thanks his lucky stars that he'll be able to squeeze one more season's worth of paychecks into his checking account, further strengthening his future retirement.

Finally, no -- my last point isn't the only thing that's holding this team back. Certainly there are many, many reasons why we can't seem to right this ship. Saturday and Sunday's action being one of the primary reasons why ... it goes on and on.