RI: Collins is the no. 2

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

What an incredibly inane statement. For the last two years WE HAVE BEEN DEVELOPING CAMPBELL. In case you forgot, we drafted him in 2005. Although I haven't looked back, I'm betting you were one who blasted the pick b/c it meant that Gibbs was gonna let your boy Patrick go.

As for drafting developmental QB's - since 2000 we have drafted the following QB's:

2000 - Todd Husak (6th Round)
2001 - Sage Rosenfels (4th Round)
2002 - Patrick Ramsey (1st Round)
2003 - Gibram Hamdan (7th Round)
2005 - Jason Campbell (1st Round)
2007 - Jordan Palmer (6th Round)

The Skins consistently pick up young QB's in hopes one will develop. Throw in Casey Bramlett and that's a lot of young developmental QB's. The fact that they did not pan is not entirely Gibbs fault. The QB position is almost impossible to hit on. Take a look at this: NFL Draft History: Full Draft - by Position

In the year 2000, six QB's were chosen before Tom Brady including such notables as Giovanni Carmazzi, Chris Redman and Tee Martin.

Take a look at the classes of:
2001 (Michael Vick's year) - 11 QB's chosen, one current starter (two including Vick - who would be a starter but for, well you know...)
2002 (Ramsey, Harrington, Carr): 15 QB's chosen - one starter (David Garrard).
2003: (Carson Palmer): 13 QB's chosen - two starters (R. Grossman) and some second tier guys (Leftwich, Boller, Simms)
2004 (Manning, Rivers, Rothlesberger): 17 QB's chosen, 4 starters (M. Schaub - starting for a team that DIDNT DRAFT HIM).

Of the 56 QB's choosen between 2001-2004, how many of the non-starters are even in the NFL? My rough estimate based on name recognition is about 10 with most of those from the more recent drafts. How many of the non-starters are actually back-ups for the teams that originally drafted them?? The only ones that I saw were Feeley and Chris Simms. There may be a couple more.

From 2002 to present we have had six developmental QB's (including Bramlett and Hamdan). Of which one is the current starter - which looks to me to be pretty much in line with the NFL ratio.

To say that we "should have addressed it in the draft a long time ago" ignores reality and is simply wrong.

BTW: Here are Beathard's QB's (78-89) with the Skins -
1981 - Tom Flick, 4th Round
1982 - Bob Holly, 11th Round
1983 - Babe Laufenberg, 6th Round
1984 - Jay Schroeder, 3rd Round
1986 - Mark Rypien, 4th Round
1988 - Stan Humphries, 6th round

Three starters, a career backup and two no-names. Pretty good odds and clearly way above the norm.



Did you watch the last half of the 4th preseason game?? Did you need to see more? He had a friggin month to prepare, it was his big chance and he f'ing stunk up the joint. AND it was pretty clear that his perfomance wasn't out of character for him - show me one report !ONE REPORT! that indicated he was solid practice squad material based on his training camp perfomance. EVERYTHING I read seemed to indicate that his performance in the preseason game was pretty much on par with his play in practice. What? we should take time/reps from QB's who may actually be required to play for us so that the guy who hasn't done anything to show differently can confirm his scrubbiness??

You only need to smell sh** to know what it is. You don't need to touch it and taste it too. I guess I'll go with the coach who won three superbowls with three different QB's when it comes to the analysis of an individual QB's potential.

Spoken like a true nit wit, Why would you bring up QB's beyond Gibbs tenure which is what my statement was about? You stated pretty clear that we have drafted 2 QB's, we gave up a whole lot to get Campbell and 3 seasons later he's finally getting his chance, and the only other 1 we drafted was Palmer, and again you continue to praise Gibbs and his ability to assess QB's and then blast Palmer for being absolutely horrible. So in other words Gibbs has drafted 1 QB other than Campbell and that's Palmer and the guy is a joke. He has taken no concern to develop depth at the QB position as I stated in 4 years, Palmer is the 1 player and shouldn't be on the practice squad.

Funny thing about those QB's he won those SB's with, he didn't draft 1 of them, he also wanted to get rid of Theisman when he arrived in DC as well, so as far as I am concerned Gibbs has NEVER proved himself a personnel guy.

Yea Gibbs can evaluate talent, take 1 look at Brunell and the deal he made to get him, the Jags saw him coming a mile away, and the fact is Brunell has been a joke since his arrival and Gibbs still can't cut the cord with a washed up QB who if he has to play is lucky to break a 100 yards passing if he completed 50 passes.

Again there is no reason to keep a player who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't get the job done, get a youngster in there with less experience and a lot of fire what harm could it possibly bring? And we may just get lucky and find a diamond in the ruff, but to continue with the likes of Brunell and Collins is a big waste of time.

If you want experience at the backup position you got it, experienced losers!

Your assessment of Beathard is so absurd it's comical, he drafted 6 QB's with the skins, 2 of them led their teams to the SB, and the other led his team to the NFC championship game, I would say that's phenomenal results considering not 1 of them was picked before the third rd.

Yes it's hard to evaluate a QB from college to the NFL, that is why you have to take more than 1 shot at doing so for the backup QB position ala BB.

And by the way the verdict is still way out on whether or not Campbell can play in this league, he's proven nothing.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by offiss

Why would you bring up QB's beyond Gibbs tenure which is what my statement was about? You stated pretty clear that we have drafted 2 QB's, we gave up a whole lot to get Campbell and 3 seasons later he's finally getting his chance, and the only other 1 we drafted was Palmer

Your original quote was:

Originally Posted by offiss

We should have addressed it in the draft a long time ago, as the great evaluator Bobby Beathard used to do, if Gibbs had the fore sight we could have been developing a backup for the last 2 years who would be ready to step in if Campbell went down, perhaps he wouldn't be great, but he could be adequate, as well he could also bring trade value down the road.

What is a long time ago? In 2004, the first year of Gibbs' second tenure? That Year we had Hamdan and Ramsey on the squad and had just aquired Brunnell. We should have drafted another QB? Then, in 2005 and as you suggest,HE DRAFTS A QB. We should've drafted two? The developmental QB on the squad turned out to be Ramsey who netted us a sixth rounder. (Not bad bargain for a third stringer - essentially the Jets paid the going rate for what is now a short term starter (T. Green)).

So in 2005 with two young QB's and Brunnell we should've drafted another? Makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by offiss

and again you continue to praise Gibbs and his ability to assess QB's and then blast Palmer for being absolutely horrible. So in other words Gibbs has drafted 1 QB other than Campbell and that's Palmer and the guy is a joke. He has taken no concern to develop depth at the QB position as I stated in 4 years, Palmer is the 1 player and shouldn't be on the practice squad.

Palmer is the one player??? NO Palmer is the SECOND player, the FIRST was Campbell. (Dear God can you be more obtuse?). And while your right, Campbell hasn't proven anything - He has better press than Ramsey did at this stage and seems to be progressing well (something Ramsey never did and still hasn't done- progress). So in 4 years, it appears that Gibbs hit on one of his two QB choices. Well above league average.

Originally Posted by offiss

Funny thing about those QB's he won those SB's with, he didn't draft 1 of them, he also wanted to get rid of Theisman when he arrived in DC as well, so as far as I am concerned Gibbs has NEVER proved himself a personnel guy.

I have never argued that Gibbs is a great "personnel guy". I think he can recognize and coach talent. Would I have made the same choices he has made in his second tenure here - probably not. And, although he may have intially wanted to get rid of Theisman - he didn't and he easily could have if he had been truly unhappy with his play. Theisman gained Gibbs confidence and Gibbs returned Theisman's work with loyalty - even when the fans were calling for Schroeder. And though he didn't draft D. Williams, Gibbs was the driving force in getting him into DC and chose him over Schroeder when push came to shove.

Originally Posted by offiss

yea Gibbs can evaluate talent, take 1 look at Brunell and the deal he made to get him, the Jags saw him coming a mile away.

Undoubtedly, Gibbs overpaid for Brunnell - but at the time we were not the only suitor for his services. Certainly Miami was interested in him. IMO, Gibbs knows he overpaid and would like to have another shot at the deal. (He made a comment later in the year that there was a learning curve on player aquisition in the FA period and he would like to do some things differently).

Originally Posted by offiss

the fact is Brunell has been a joke since his arrival and Gibbs still can't cut the cord with a washed up QB who if he has to play is lucky to break a 100 yards passing if he completed 50 passesAgain there is no reason to keep a player who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't get the job done, get a youngster in there with less experience and a lot of fire what harm could it possibly bring? And we may just get lucky and find a diamond in the ruff, but to continue with the likes of Brunell and Collins is a big waste of time.

I am not gonna get into the Brunnell Bashing fight with you. Hate all you want, it just demonstrates the true basis of your position. As for "getting a youngster in", we did three - Palmer, Bramlett and the Maryland QB (I forget his name). None of them were NFL quality (as demonstrated by the lack of interest from other teams). We may get lucky and find someone - but it wasn't anybody we looked at this year. We will probably try again next year. Goes on all over the league. Keeping both Brunnell and Collins doesn't seem like the brightest thing in the world to me either. BUT - I am not aware of the cap ramifications of cutting Brunnell and that may be playing into it.

Originally Posted by offiss

If you want experience at the backup position you got it, experienced losers!

While I am not certain, I believe Brunnell's lifetime win percentage is pretty much on the plus side.

Originally Posted by offiss

Your assessment of Beathard is so absurd it's comical, he drafted 6 QB's with the skins, 2 of them led their teams to the SB, and the other led his team to the NFC championship game, I would say that's phenomenal results considering not 1 of them was picked before the third rd.

Yes it's hard to evaluate a QB from college to the NFL, that is why you have to take more than 1 shot at doing so for the backup QB position ala BB.

And by the way the verdict is still way out on whether or not Campbell can play in this league, he's proven nothing.

Why are you picking a fight where we don't disagree? Beathard had a phenomenal record - I would imagine that it is close to unmatched (perhaps Ron Wolfe).

As for taking "more than 1 shot", Beathard did not pick a QB until his third year with the Skins and then chose six in eight years (Oh wait, that's what the Skins have done in the last eight years). Again I again point out that Gibbs has picked two QB's in four years.

The Skins record on QB picks in the last eight years is, again, about average maybe better, 1 in six was a bonified starter (or appears to be) and two back ups that have moved on to other teams (Rosenfels, Ramsey).

And while the verdict IS still out on Campbell. I will bet you $100.00 that, barring injury, he puts together a better season than Ramsey ever had for any of his three teams.

[MTK]

I think what this boils down to is offiss' not so secret man crush on Patrick Ramsey.

JR, I think you've presented a well thought out and rational argument and all offiss can do at this point is revert to name calling and Brunell bashing. C'mon offiss, step it up son! It's the end of the first quarter and the score is:

JoeRedskin 7
offiss 0

[hagams]

I don't think it matters who the #2 is. Mark and Todd are both vets that can throw the ball to the HB every down at least. We should be good for this year, but we should really focus on getting a young QB in the off season. Both the our backups will be collecting Social Security soon, so they won't last too much longer. It feels like we are driving a car and the gas gauge reads "empty", but we know we can get 3-4 miles on it still. Wow.....that didn't make much sense.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I think what this boils down to is offiss' not so secret man crush on Patrick Ramsey.

JR, I think you've presented a well thought out and rational argument and all offiss can do at this point is revert to name calling and Brunell bashing. C'mon offiss, step it up son! It's the end of the first quarter and the score is:

JoeRedskin 7
offiss 0

I think offiss should punt.

[gibbsisgod]

Originally Posted by hagams

I don't think it matters who the #2 is. Mark and Todd are both vets that can throw the ball to the HB every down at least. We should be good for this year, but we should really focus on getting a young QB in the off season. Both the our backups will be collecting Social Security soon, so they won't last too much longer. It feels like we are driving a car and the gas gauge reads "empty", but we know we can get 3-4 miles on it still. Wow.....that didn't make much sense.

Actually, it makes alot of sense.

[gibbsisgod]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think offiss should punt.

I wouldn't kick it anywhere near JR. He might just take it back for 6.

[12thMan]

JR, nice assessment.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by chrisl4064

collins couldnt win a game for us if we played michigan.....

Actually, their QB now does have a better arm than Collins. Sad.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by gibbsisgod

I wouldn't kick it anywhere near JR. He might just take it back for 6.

Thanks for the compliment, unfortunately, I will be away for two weeks starting in two hours and must now go silent. Thus, any punt will go unreturned.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Thanks for the compliment, unfortunately, I will be away for two weeks starting in two hours and must now go silent. Thus, any punt will go unreturned.

I'll back you up. I've been holding the clipboard for a while now, I think I'm ready to play!

[JoeRedskin]

With that candy arm of yours? We all know that the only reason you're still around is that you and Matty attend the same church. We shoulda cut you and drafted some young developmental mods (Unfortunately, last time we did that we ended up with TMC - talk about a wasted pick. Clearly Matty just can't pick talent).

Just kidding of course, can't think of anyone I would rather hand off to.

and with that... OUTER BANKS HERE I COME!!!!!!

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Buster

Randel El.

Randle EL has the 2nd strongest arm on the team!

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think much more important is to have depth on the O-Line. With 5 linemen versus just 1 QB on the field at any time, you're 5 times more likely to see a starting lineman go down. We need to make sure we have depth on the line to protect Campbell and not worry about Collins or Brunell.

And I think we've done a really good job building depth on the line.

Nice!
Way to overlooked point in the QB battle. We don't need a great QB to have a GREAT performance. Just ask Rypien. Great line and avg QB=Great QB performance

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Your original quote was:



What is a long time ago? In 2004, the first year of Gibbs' second tenure? That Year we had Hamdan and Ramsey on the squad and had just aquired Brunnell. We should have drafted another QB? Then, in 2005 and as you suggest,HE DRAFTS A QB. We should've drafted two? The developmental QB on the squad turned out to be Ramsey who netted us a sixth rounder. (Not bad bargain for a third stringer - essentially the Jets paid the going rate for what is now a short term starter (T. Green)).

So in 2005 with two young QB's and Brunnell we should've drafted another? Makes sense to me.



Palmer is the one player??? NO Palmer is the SECOND player, the FIRST was Campbell. (Dear God can you be more obtuse?). And while your right, Campbell hasn't proven anything - He has better press than Ramsey did at this stage and seems to be progressing well (something Ramsey never did and still hasn't done- progress). So in 4 years, it appears that Gibbs hit on one of his two QB choices. Well above league average.



I have never argued that Gibbs is a great "personnel guy". I think he can recognize and coach talent. Would I have made the same choices he has made in his second tenure here - probably not. And, although he may have intially wanted to get rid of Theisman - he didn't and he easily could have if he had been truly unhappy with his play. Theisman gained Gibbs confidence and Gibbs returned Theisman's work with loyalty - even when the fans were calling for Schroeder. And though he didn't draft D. Williams, Gibbs was the driving force in getting him into DC and chose him over Schroeder when push came to shove.



Undoubtedly, Gibbs overpaid for Brunnell - but at the time we were not the only suitor for his services. Certainly Miami was interested in him. IMO, Gibbs knows he overpaid and would like to have another shot at the deal. (He made a comment later in the year that there was a learning curve on player aquisition in the FA period and he would like to do some things differently).



I am not gonna get into the Brunnell Bashing fight with you. Hate all you want, it just demonstrates the true basis of your position. As for "getting a youngster in", we did three - Palmer, Bramlett and the Maryland QB (I forget his name). None of them were NFL quality (as demonstrated by the lack of interest from other teams). We may get lucky and find someone - but it wasn't anybody we looked at this year. We will probably try again next year. Goes on all over the league. Keeping both Brunnell and Collins doesn't seem like the brightest thing in the world to me either. BUT - I am not aware of the cap ramifications of cutting Brunnell and that may be playing into it.




While I am not certain, I believe Brunnell's lifetime win percentage is pretty much on the plus side.



Why are you picking a fight where we don't disagree? Beathard had a phenomenal record - I would imagine that it is close to unmatched (perhaps Ron Wolfe).

As for taking "more than 1 shot", Beathard did not pick a QB until his third year with the Skins and then chose six in eight years (Oh wait, that's what the Skins have done in the last eight years). Again I again point out that Gibbs has picked two QB's in four years.

The Skins record on QB picks in the last eight years is, again, about average maybe better, 1 in six was a bonified starter (or appears to be) and two back ups that have moved on to other teams (Rosenfels, Ramsey).

And while the verdict IS still out on Campbell. I will bet you $100.00 that, barring injury, he puts together a better season than Ramsey ever had for any of his three teams.

Palmer is the one player??? NO Palmer is the SECOND player, the FIRST was Campbell. (Dear God can you be more obtuse?). And while your right, Campbell hasn't proven anything - He has better press than Ramsey did at this stage and seems to be progressing well (something Ramsey never did and still hasn't done- progress). So in 4 years, it appears that Gibbs hit on one of his two QB choices. Well above league average.

Pay attention, which I know you don't which is why we are even having the debate, Palmer is the first QB drafted by Gibbs to be a backup, Campbell was drafted to be a starter, as I said he has not brought in talent at the QB position to add depth. Please pay attention before you use fancy words like obtuse, we all have seen shawshank redemption.

It appears he's hit on Campbell eh. Ramsey's press was better than Campbells my friend that is why everyone was so shocked when Gibbs went after Brunell, it is also why Miami was offering a #2 pick in the draft for Ramsey at the time. I would like to know what Campbell has done to warrant these accolades? Other than being the only guy on the team who can actually throw a football 50 yards? Campbell has proven nothing, his only accolade is gibbs named him starter no different than when he named Brunell the starter, Campbell has a long way to go before he's a success story. Beating Brunell out for the starting job I hardly consider conquering the mountain.


You also keep bringing up pre gibbs, my contention is Gibbs has not addressed the QB depth with youth, BB didn't address it initially because we had a bonafide starter and backups, but he did address it and not with QB's who went undrafted.

I really hope Campbell is the goods because we are a long way's away from another legitimate starter.