AP Article: Redskins offense back to square one!

[724Skinsfan]

I always thought Football 101 was play to your strengths. If you have a top tier QB and above average pass protection, you throw more. If your running game is stronger and your pass protection is below average, you run more.

I'm a lazy man by nature so I won't bother looking up the numbers; however I would venture to guess the Colts and Patriots run the ball way more than pass in the 4th when they're ahead by 2 or 3 TD's...just like 90% of the rest of the league would do if they happen to find themselves frequently in such a situation.

Where was I! Oh yeah, teams with weak/inexperienced QB's should run more in order to set up the pass.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

No, they don't go hand in hand. Not anymore Joe. This is the 80's early 90 mentality. Gibbs is never ever going to adjust to today's NFL. When is this guy ever going to realize that it is a passing league now? The rules beg you to pass it. DB's can't even breathe on the WR's yet we don't have one single wr with a passing TD. You should be able to pass it with the guys you brought in here w/out having to run it all the time. Same old crap.

Many of the other responses have all provided great stats to back up the fact that the NFL is not just a "passing league".
Unfortunately we have a young QB and WRs who don't scare anyone, even if you spread the field out and come out in passing formations the defense can still cheat towards the run because our passing game isn't a threat. If you try to "air it out" unsuccessfully you will have a lot of "three and outs", you are not taking any time off the clock, or giving the defense any rest.
The NFL isn't just about being a "passing league", it is about scheming towards a team's strenghs and covering up the personnel weaknesses. The majority of NFL coaches are smart guys and work very hard, but at the NFL level it's mostly about talent and right now on offense our talent level is not very good. Our OL is injured and weak on the right side, our WRs are not very good, Portis is not looking good, Betts has not proven he is a "number one" back, Campbell is still basically a rookie and Cooley, while a top ten TE, isn't physically gifted like a Kellen Winslow, Antonio Gates or Tony Gonzalez, he cannot carry us.
So what should Joe Gibbs do, try to come out and throw the ball 70% of the time...OR...attempt to establish the run, work in some play action, manage the game, and rely on our solid defense and special teams to keep us in the game. I don't think it's a matter of the game passing Gibbs by, we just don't have the talent on offense.
You mentioned the Browns skill players not being better than ours in another post. I would take Braylon Edwards over any of our WRs, Jurevicous is a solid # 2, and Winslow is more of a physical threat than Cooley. How about some of the other skill players from teams you mentioned; Giants - Burress, Shockey, Toomer, Detroit - Calvin Johnson, Roy Williams, Seattle - WRs aren't scary, but Hasselbeck is a very solid veteran QB, GB - Driver & Jennings are getting it done and Favre is having his "last hurrah", Dallas - hurts to say it but their skill guys are better.
We just have to be realistic, we were 5-11 last year for a reason. To go to 8-8 or 9-7, while disappointing if we don't make the playoffs is a good improvement. If we make some solid personnel decisions in the off-season we are defintely going in the right direction.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

The Pats are light years ahead of the majority of the league, let's not kid ourselves.

But don't you think we should be a little closer than what the score indicated? Or do you think we just had an off day?

[saden1]

Benefits of running the ball:
1. Wears down the opponent's defense. If a defense is tired you can run and pass on them all day.
2. Play action, play action, play action! If you can't run the ball whose going to fall for you worthless play action fakes?


p.s. Someone has been playing Madden way too much!

[724Skinsfan]

By the same token, shouldn't the Lions be a little closer to us than what that score indicated?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

But don't you think we should be a little closer than what the score indicated? Or do you think we just had an off day?

Not with our bloody offense! They were totally exposed for the frauds they are. The defense was banged up (no Smoot, no Rogers, no McIntosh, and banged up Washington) and even if everyone on defense was healthy that shitty Skins offense couldn't sustain a drive (the Pats had the ball for 37:49).


No my friend, if we played them again I highly doubt the score would be any different.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

"If you can run it, draw people to the line of scrimmage, then you can pass it. They go hand in hand."

No, they don't go hand in hand. Not anymore Joe. This is the 80's early 90 mentality. Gibbs is never ever going to adjust to today's NFL. When is this guy ever going to realize that it is a passing league now? The rules beg you to pass it. DB's can't even breathe on the WR's yet we don't have one single wr with a passing TD. You should be able to pass it with the guys you brought in here w/out having to run it all the time. Same old crap.

Just about every team INCLUDING the Colts last year won the championship because of a strong running game. If you're looking for a passing league, watch the AFL.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

In no way do I discount it. Not at all. But I just don't think it's life or death like Gibbs and Bugel do. That is why they are not in touch with today's NFL. If they would just look around they would see what the good teams are doing and adjust. That's why I'm so down on Gibbs. He was simply the master at adjusting his 1st go around. Who was better at adjusting than Gibbs 1? No one.

If he would just look at the line he would know that they can't play smash mouth. Everyone knows we are going to run to the left side, and Fabini and Wade can not run block.

I remember the 89 team. Just barely missed the playoffs cause of massive injuries. The rb's were all beat up and he just said I'm going to put it on Monk, Clark and Sanders. That was the year all 3 went over 1,000 yards. How many times has that ever been done in the NFL? 2-3 times maybe?? So this is the stuff I'm talking about. The guy knows offensive football. He was the first one to come out with the bunch sets and one back stuff. But he is so damn stubborn about opening up the offense and putting it on the WR's who are suppose to be the strength of the team. Plus he's got Sanders here. Yet we still can't score points and we are 27th or 28th in offense? We have all these wr's and a deep ball thrower yet not one single wr has a td pass this year??? If I were Snyder I would be so damn pissed it's not even funny.

That's a fair point. Good post.

People often forget that Gibbs was originally known as a pass-first coach. Only with Riggins and the talent he had along the O-line did he finally decide to go smashmouth. Bottom line is that he adapted to the personnel that was given to him. Something he needs to do now.

Back in 1992, in the playoff game against Minnesota, there was a stat totalling all of the plays Gibbs had run since 1981. It was perfectly balanced, but with one more pass attempt than running attempt.

No one is suggesting giving up the run. Of course you have to try to run it. But sometimes the passing game can open up the running game. I don't think it would be out of the question to tilt the play selection to something like 55-60% pass to 40-45% run.

I don't think it would signal the apocalypse if they tried that.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Sorry, but I've about had it with Joe Bugel and his "tough talk" about "our way or the Trailway".

Excuse me, Assistant Head Coach - Offense Joe, but you've been here for 4 seasons now and have had time to develop all the toughness and dedication you ought to need in your OL. The problem actually is that you managed to acquire/developonly four or five competent offensive linemen and when a couple of them got hurt you had nothing behind them who could get the job done. Oh, that happened in years past too so I guess you didn't learn from those experiences.

You are the legendary "Hog-Master". So, what great offensive lines have you actually developed in the last 15 years? I think the answer to that is zero.

Maybe - just maybe - the Hogs were great because there were at least 3 and maybe 4 outstanding talents on that line at the same time and just about any good line coach could have made them into a dominant unit. In your subsequent stops in the NFL - including your reincarnation here - the offensive lines have been sub-standard most of the time and marginally above average once in a while.

Maybe you should be one of the guys at the Trailways Terminal with bags in hand? Maybe you should be first in line?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, but I've about had it with Joe Bugel and his "tough talk" about "our way or the Trailway".

Excuse me, Assistant Head Coach - Offense Joe, but you've been here for 4 seasons now and have had time to develop all the toughness and dedication you ought to need in your OL. The problem actually is that you managed to acquire/developonly four or five competent offensive linemen and when a couple of them got hurt you had nothing behind them who could get the job done. Oh, that happened in years past too so I guess you didn't learn from those experiences.

You are the legendary "Hog-Master". So, what great offensive lines have you actually developed in the last 15 years? I think the answer to that is zero.

Maybe - just maybe - the Hogs were great because there were at least 3 and maybe 4 outstanding talents on that line at the same time and just about any good line coach could have made them into a dominant unit. In your subsequent stops in the NFL - including your reincarnation here - the offensive lines have been sub-standard most of the time and marginally above average once in a while.

Maybe you should be one of the guys at the Trailways Terminal with bags in hand? Maybe you should be first in line?

How many offensive linemen could they have drafted had they not blown their wad on TJ Duckett and Brandon Lloyd? Two 3rd round choices and two 4th rounders? Kind of hard to develop an O-line when you devote three late round draft selections at the position in four years.

Bugel had nothing to do with those boneheaded decisions.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Just about every team INCLUDING the Colts last year won the championship because of a strong running game. If you're looking for a passing league, watch the AFL.

Do you know one of the main reasons the Colts run it so well? Why they have such a high average yards per carry? It's because they never ever ever have 8 guys lurking around the line like we do. Defenses that play the Colts know better. They know they will get burned deep and they respect the passing game. Who respects our passing game when we are always throwing wr screens all day long and don't push the ball in the 15-25 yard range?

When have you ever seen CP run the ball when JC is in shotgun on 1st down with the field spread out? It's little things like this that will help a slasher like CP operate in space. I'm not saying play run and shoot but at least try and run more out of passing formations on 1st and 2nd down.

Portis averaged over 5 yards a carry before he got here. His average has dipped down alot since he has come to Wash. Sorry but I put some of that on the coaches for not trying to spead the field more and let the guy try and run in space. Instead we try and play smash mouth with a 205 back. It makes no sense. CP is not a in between the tackles type of runner. He needs to be on the perimeter as Sanders likes to say. Why aren't we running more stretch plays?

Gibbs and Bugel's mentality is they don't care how many guys are in the box. They ignore it. They did it last year and to a point they are doing it this year. Establish the run at all costs and it's just killing us.

If we ever come out and try and pass first to set up the run I might cum in might pants.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Many of the other responses have all provided great stats to back up the fact that the NFL is not just a "passing league".
Unfortunately we have a young QB and WRs who don't scare anyone, even if you spread the field out and come out in passing formations the defense can still cheat towards the run because our passing game isn't a threat. If you try to "air it out" unsuccessfully you will have a lot of "three and outs", you are not taking any time off the clock, or giving the defense any rest.
The NFL isn't just about being a "passing league", it is about scheming towards a team's strenghs and covering up the personnel weaknesses. The majority of NFL coaches are smart guys and work very hard, but at the NFL level it's mostly about talent and right now on offense our talent level is not very good. Our OL is injured and weak on the right side, our WRs are not very good, Portis is not looking good, Betts has not proven he is a "number one" back, Campbell is still basically a rookie and Cooley, while a top ten TE, isn't physically gifted like a Kellen Winslow, Antonio Gates or Tony Gonzalez, he cannot carry us.
So what should Joe Gibbs do, try to come out and throw the ball 70% of the time...OR...attempt to establish the run, work in some play action, manage the game, and rely on our solid defense and special teams to keep us in the game. I don't think it's a matter of the game passing Gibbs by, we just don't have the talent on offense.
You mentioned the Browns skill players not being better than ours in another post. I would take Braylon Edwards over any of our WRs, Jurevicous is a solid # 2, and Winslow is more of a physical threat than Cooley. How about some of the other skill players from teams you mentioned; Giants - Burress, Shockey, Toomer, Detroit - Calvin Johnson, Roy Williams, Seattle - WRs aren't scary, but Hasselbeck is a very solid veteran QB, GB - Driver & Jennings are getting it done and Favre is having his "last hurrah", Dallas - hurts to say it but their skill guys are better.
We just have to be realistic, we were 5-11 last year for a reason. To go to 8-8 or 9-7, while disappointing if we don't make the playoffs is a good improvement. If we make some solid personnel decisions in the off-season we are defintely going in the right direction.

You bring up some very good points here. Sometimes the truth hurts. Perhaps our guys just aren't as good as advertised. But I need to see our skill guys get more chances. Lloyd needs to get more balls thrown to him. I know he is probably a bum. But at least give him 4-5 balls a game downfield, instead of the screens.

I didn't see us try and get Santana the ball at all downfield against NE. When Dallas played NE Witten was killing Harrison. Is Witten that much better than Cooley? Yet I didn't see any effort to get Cooley the ball downfield until it was too late.

I think the #1 priority for this team next off season is a big 6'4 red zone threat that draws coverage to his side of the field like Randy Moss does. We just can't score points. Perhaps someone like that can open up everything for the other players.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I think the #1 priority for this team next off season is a big 6'4 red zone threat that draws coverage to his side of the field like Randy Moss does. We just can't score points. Perhaps someone like that can open up everything for the other players.

Agreed 100%.
We need physical threats at WR, not just a couple of guys who only run fast, because you can always play with help over the top. If the speed-burners don't run particularly good routes, go over the middle well, or have great hands they are fairly easy to defend.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, but I've about had it with Joe Bugel and his "tough talk" about "our way or the Trailway".

In case you hadn't noticed, our offensive line play these past few years has been one of the bright spots. He loses 1 lineman to free agency, gets a replacement LG 2 weeks before the start of the season, loses the starting RT to IR, loses the best linemen at RG until the end of the season, his center is playing hurt, and so he's left with one uninjured starter from last year along a 5 man unit and you expect things to not skip a beat?

Apparently, our depth along the O-line is not nearly as good as we thought. You can say he is responsible for developing the depth all you want. But, if you give the guy bad eggs, rotten tomatoes, and Kraft cheese and order an omelet, expect it to taste like s--t.

[offiss]

I don't know what there is to be optimistic about that article? Personally I thought it reeks of the same old none-sense, the only difference is the players are starting to become a little restless because they know what they are doing ain't gonna work, sounds like a respectful plea to gibbs to open up the offense and let them play, and his reply? We are going to shut it down even more with the running game, WONDERFUL!

Correct me him I am wrong, haven't we tried to run the ball all season? And hasn't it failed miserably? This commitment Gibbs is talking about, what would it be called the previous 7 games? Have players been faking it? Have the linemen been holding back on their blocks waiting to see how long it would take Gibbs to yell at them? Is it Halloween, or April fools? Sounds to me like things will only get worse if they truly think they are going to announce to the league we are going to open up the pass with the run, it's not like teams haven't been sitting on that game plan for 4 seasons. The fact is Gibbs ain't gonna like the result and all the 3 and outs that will accompany that strategy with this O-line.

He needs to open up the run with the pass with what he has on offense, now either he's blowing his usual smoke for the Jets, or he's officially lost it. This little meeting the players approached him with is going to be much bigger, and more vocal the next time, IMO the Caine Mutiny is on the horizon.

I just can't believe the players including Campbell, want to run the ball right now given how inept the running game has been?