Gibbs

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by skinsfan242

I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.

Indeed, this is a subject that we're beating to death. But to respond to the challenge of "can anyone say when [Gibbs] steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were," I can't imagine I'm the only one who could very, very easily say that, if he were to step down today, we are NOT "light years" ahead of where we were. Again, we're going over and over this topic. But as that bastard Parcells proclaimed, you're as good as your record, and Gibbs overall record more than three and a half years into his second stint is below
.500, which makes him almost indistinguishable from the five coaches (Richie, Turner, Robiske, Marty, Spurrier) who preceded him (well, Marty actually had an even .500). As Boswell said in the Post last week, this team is mediocre. Period. If you're saying that Gibbs has laid a foundation for a powerhouse in the years to come, well, that's something I haven't heard too many NFL experts say. Sure, the so-called "experts" consistently show that they don't exactly have crystal balls, but I guess I'm just not as confident as you are that the current team is a youthful, soon-to-be dominator. Look, I'm not blaming anything on Coach Joe, I'm simply responding to your suggestion that he has radically turned the organization around. He hasn't.

[irish]

Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT

Indeed, this is a subject that we're beating to death. But to respond to the challenge of "can anyone say when [Gibbs] steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were," I can't imagine I'm the only one who could very, very easily say that, if he were to step down today, we are NOT "light years" ahead of where we were. Again, we're going over and over this topic. But as that bastard Parcells proclaimed, you're as good as your record, and Gibbs overall record more than three and a half years into his second stint is below
.500, which makes him almost indistinguishable from the five coaches (Richie, Turner, Robiske, Marty, Spurrier) who preceded him (well, Marty actually had an even .500). As Boswell said in the Post last week, this team is mediocre. Period. If you're saying that Gibbs has laid a foundation for a powerhouse in the years to come, well, that's something I haven't heard too many NFL experts say. Sure, the so-called "experts" consistently show that they don't exactly have crystal balls, but I guess I'm just not as confident as you are that the current team is a youthful, soon-to-be dominator. Look, I'm not blaming anything on Coach Joe, I'm simply responding to your suggestion that he has radically turned the organization around. He hasn't.

I couldnt agree more. Any notion that this team is light years ahead of where it was is just not reality. I think until the organization fundamentally changes the way it does business (build the foundation through the draft and fill a spot or 2 with FAs) then it will continue to have mediocre results.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by irish

I couldnt agree more. Any notion that this team is light years ahead of where it was is just not reality. I think until the organization fundamentally changes the way it does business (build the foundation through the draft and fill a spot or 2 with FAs) then it will continue to have mediocre results.

I think you're greatly underestimating/ignoring what we have done with the draft.

[irish]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think you're greatly underestimating/ignoring what we have done with the draft.

I think they have done a decent job with 1st round picks but after that they dont really have any pics so they cant build any foundation. Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks, it the later rounds that provide the foundation & depth all consistent winners in the nfl have.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by irish

I think they have done a decent job with 1st round picks but after that they dont really have any pics so they cant build any foundation. Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks, it the later rounds that provide the foundation & depth all consistent winners in the nfl have.

You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?

[irish]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?

I'm not saying the Skins dont have any but out of all those rounds and picks you can name 5, 3 of which are barely recognizable as Skins.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by irish

I'm not saying the Skins dont have any but out of all those rounds and picks you can name 5, 3 of which are barely recognizable as Skins.

It's an area that needs improvement for sure. I guess just from the tone of your posts it seems like you're saying they have none which of course is untrue

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?

And these players represent the reasons why we shouldn't piss away 3rd and 4th round picks for guys like TJ Duckett and Brandon Lloyd.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?

Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by offiss

Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.

Remember when the Pats drafted Laurence Maroney with Joseph Addai still on the board?

I guess Pioli is a terrible GM, huh?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.

We're talking about a foundation for the future. Beyond the 1st rounders (Landry, Campbell, Taylor, Rogers) we have, in my opinion, selected players in later rounds that are a foundation for future. Such as the ones mentioned above.

There's vast room for improvement, no question. But it's not as dismal as some think.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by offiss

Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.

Who said anything about these guys going to the HOF??

I think the point was we do have some mid to late round talent on the team. Do we need more? Yes, but the roster is certainly not totally void of mid to late round talent.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by irish

I think they have done a decent job with 1st round picks but after that they dont really have any pics so they cant build any foundation. Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks, it the later rounds that provide the foundation & depth all consistent winners in the nfl have.

Assuming that we don't know if a player is a bust until his third season, let's look at 2005 first round picks who appear to be busts in year 3:

Alex Smith (#1)
Cedric Benson (#4)
Pacman Jones (#6)
Troy Williamson (#7)
Mike Williams (#10)
Erasmus James (#18)
Matt Jones (#21)

I may be missing some, but those are 1st round busts from just one draft. Projecting college players to the NFL is not as easy as you make it out to be.

[irish]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Assuming that we don't know if a player is a bust until his third season, let's look at 2005 first round picks who appear to be busts in year 3:

Alex Smith (#1)
Cedric Benson (#4)
Pacman Jones (#6)
Troy Williamson (#7)
Mike Williams (#10)
Erasmus James (#18)
Matt Jones (#21)

I may be missing some, but those are 1st round busts from just one draft. Projecting college players to the NFL is not as easy as you make it out to be.

I never said it was easy. You have 7 busts out of 32, thats a pretty low % and most of those were drafted by bad teams. Also Pacman was fine on the field but a disaster off it so I'm not sure you can call him bust.

There are no sure things in the draft but the 1st round is as close as you can get.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by irish

I never said it was easy. You have 7 busts out of 32, thats a pretty low % and most of those were drafted by bad teams. Also Pacman was fine on the field but a disaster off it so I'm not sure you can call him bust.

There are no sure things in the draft but the 1st round is as close as you can get.

That percentage may be higher - there were names I don't recognize from that first round who may be well on their way to becoming busts as well. Ask Tennessee how they feel about Pacman. You think they wish they had drafted Antrel Rolle or Carlos Rogers instead???