F... Kool-Aid

[Schneed10]

This debate, raging amongst several threads, over optimism vs pessimism, over idealism vs realism, over Kool-Aid vs Haterade, is making me sick to my stomach. It's juvenile, and frankly something I'd expect to find at Extreme.

If you're an optimist, that's great. At heart, we all are, because our love for the team drives us to hope for the best. In our heads however, I don't think there's a one of us who doesn't have doubts.

This goofy Kool-Aid vs Haterade thing is all about the battle between your heart and your head. So how about this: a return to intelligent debate at The Warpath.

In this thread, I'd like to hear LOGICAL and RATIONAL arguments for things like:

- Why we'll make the playoffs
- How we'll make the playoffs
- Why and/or how we'll beat the Cowboys
- How we'll make up for injured players

I don't want to see any opinions in this thread that look like this:

I believe Jason Campbell will have a great game, for some reason. [If you can't point to a reason, your belief holds no water. Remember, this is the thread where we return to KNOWLEDGEABLE discussion. No discussion based on belief allowed.]

And nothing looking like this:

I think we'll beat the Cowboys because I want us to beat the Cowboys. No S, Sherlock. Of course we all want to beat the Cowboys. But what we want (or said differently, hope for) is not the same thing as what we THINK.

Come on Warpath, restore my faith in you. Make rational arguments, stop questioning each other's fanhood, and get back to relevant discussion. I challenge the optimists among us to give rational reasoning for why we have cause to be optimistic. This way, we might look at this thread and actually have something meaningful to get excited about.

[MTRedskinsFan]

Jeez man, it's Friday night and you should take it easy. Make yourself a drink, apologize to her, and tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTRedskinsFan

Jeez man, it's Friday night and you should take it easy. Make yourself a drink, apologize to her, and tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

And we're off to a marvelous start.

[MTRedskinsFan]

What are you, a flight-traffic controller or something?

[MTRedskinsFan]

How about this:

JC will have a great game if Gibbs/Saunders put the ball in his hands like last week. He is ready to assume those responsibilities on a regular basis and his playcalling, based on what little history we have, is more dynamic (really I mean less predictable). JC will have a constrained, ineffective game if SOMEBODY else calls the plays.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTRedskinsFan

How about this:

JC will have a great game if Gibbs/Saunders put the ball in his hands like last week. He is ready to assume those responsibilities on a regular basis and his playcalling, based on what little history we have, is more dynamic (really I mean less predictable). JC will have a constrained, ineffective game if SOMEBODY else calls the plays.

Thanks for the meaningful comment. I agree with you that the offensive staff should continue to trust Campbell to run a hurry-up and open up the offense. But keep in mind that even though they trusted Campbell fully against the Eagles, we still lost. And now we face a much better team. Campbell having a great game isn't the end-all be-all to a W. Though it would be a darn good step.

[MTRedskinsFan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Thanks for the meaningful comment. I agree with you that the offensive staff should continue to trust Campbell to run a hurry-up and open up the offense. But keep in mind that even though they trusted Campbell fully against the Eagles, we still lost. And now we face a much better team. Campbell having a great game isn't the end-all be-all to a W. Though it would be a darn good step.

Notice I didn't say anything about a W (personally, I hate the guy :screama). Putting the ball in JC's hands should give us far better offensive production, as it did last Sunday. But the defense has to play 4 qtrs of intense ball to give as any shot at a W. Something they did not do last Sunday.

Which leads me to this thought:

Landry played FS in college and was very dangerous. W/ Taylor out would it make sense to throw Landry back there? I bring it up because Praylow did not look effective as GW's center fielder, but he has looked very sharp coming in for Landry at SS. I could see Landry in center field because he's very fast and probably makes TO more nervous than Praylow would as FS, and Praylow taking over at SS. I've been thinking about this since Sunday and it just keeps making more sense. Landry was so effective at FS his senior year opposing QBs rarely threw deep on LSU.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

This debate, raging amongst several threads, over optimism vs pessimism, over idealism vs realism, over Kool-Aid vs Haterade, is making me sick to my stomach. It's juvenile, and frankly something I'd expect to find at Extreme.

If you're an optimist, that's great. At heart, we all are, because our love for the team drives us to hope for the best. In our heads however, I don't think there's a one of us who doesn't have doubts.

This goofy Kool-Aid vs Haterade thing is all about the battle between your heart and your head. So how about this: a return to intelligent debate at The Warpath.

In this thread, I'd like to hear LOGICAL and RATIONAL arguments for things like:

- Why we'll make the playoffs
- How we'll make the playoffs
- Why and/or how we'll beat the Cowboys
- How we'll make up for injured players

I don't want to see any opinions in this thread that look like this:

I believe Jason Campbell will have a great game, for some reason. [If you can't point to a reason, your belief holds no water. Remember, this is the thread where we return to KNOWLEDGEABLE discussion. No discussion based on belief allowed.]

And nothing looking like this:

I think we'll beat the Cowboys because I want us to beat the Cowboys. No S, Sherlock. Of course we all want to beat the Cowboys. But what we want (or said differently, hope for) is not the same thing as what we THINK.

Come on Warpath, restore my faith in you. Make rational arguments, stop questioning each other's fanhood, and get back to relevant discussion. I challenge the optimists among us to give rational reasoning for why we have cause to be optimistic. This way, we might look at this thread and actually have something meaningful to get excited about.

How is one to have a rational debate about a future event that hasn't even taken place with some many different variables at play? Namely, "I believe" Jason Campbell will have a good game? The very words, "I believe" should indicate that there aren't many facts to back it up in the first place. It's part gut and part hope. And if that's the case, what's so wrong about that?

Furthermore, every thread isn't more or less legitimate because it's perceived to be rational or irrational. Tell me, what's rational about a guy driving two hours, mingling through traffic, going to a parking lot full of strangers and cooking on grill in sub-zero temperatures? Then getting in a long ass line for another 45 minutes to get inside a huge arena with thousands of strangers to yell his or her lungs out in the freezing cold for the next three hours? Then coming home to, walk pass the dog, ignore the wife, log onto his/her computer to arugue, cry, bitch or moan with some guys/gals they've never met one day in their life? If you can explain that to me, I'll give you hard core facts as to why Jason Campbell will throw for 300 yrds Sunday against the Cowboys.

The only thing or event anyone can predict with certainty is the weather. And even that with all the instruments, aparatus, and expertise involved is 50/50 a lot of the times.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

How is one to have a rational debate about a future event that hasn't even taken place with some many different variables at play? Namely, "I believe" Jason Campbell will have a good game? The very words, "I believe" should indicate that there aren't many facts to back it up in the first place. It's part gut and part hope. And if that's the case, what's so wrong about that?

Furthermore, every thread isn't more or less legitimate because it's perceived to be rational or irrational. Tell me, what's rational about a guy driving two hours, mingling through traffic, going to a parking lot full of strangers and cooking on grill in sub-zero temperatures? Then getting in a long ass line for another 45 minutes to get inside a huge arena with thousands of strangers to yell his or her lungs out in the freezing cold for the next three hours? Then coming home to, walk pass the dog, ignore the wife, log onto his/her computer to arugue, cry, bitch or moan with some guys/gals they've never met one day in their life? If you can explain that to me, I'll give you hard core facts as to why Jason Campbell will throw for 300 yrds Sunday against the Cowboys.

The only thing or event anyone can predict with certainty is the weather. And even that with all the instruments, aparatus, and expertise involved is 50/50 a lot of the times.

Best post on The Warpath in a long, long time.

No one can say with certainty whether we'll win or lose on any given Sunday. Yes, there is always a chance we can win. There's also always a chance we can lose.

I love arguing stats as much as the next guy, probably more, but when it comes down to it we're just arguing probability / likelihood of a future event. Anyone arguing that they know we'll win or they know we'll lose is just full of it.

You can believe something all you want and with all your heart - that doesn't make it true. I can believe with every last ounce of my being that I can fly, but when I take a leap off of a ten story building I'm going to be sorely disappointed in how much gravity doesn't care what I believe.

I say we form a group of "core guys" to bring back rational thought to the Warpath. We're not pessimists, we're not optimists, we're not drinking Kool-Aid or Hater-Aid, we're fans with realistic viewpoints, rational thought and a heart for our team.

Warpathers for Rational Thought (WRT)? The Warpath Foundation for Balanced and Rational Thought (TWBRT)? I dunno, is someone better with acronyms than I am? Warpathers Against Pessimism and Optimism (WAPO)?

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Best post on The Warpath in a long, long time.

No one can say with certainty whether we'll win or lose on any given Sunday. Yes, there is always a chance we can win. There's also always a chance we can lose.

I love arguing stats as much as the next guy, probably more, but when it comes down to it we're just arguing probability / likelihood of a future event. Anyone arguing that they know we'll win or they know we'll lose is just full of it.

You can believe something all you want and with all your heart - that doesn't make it true. I can believe with every last ounce of my being that I can fly, but when I take a leap off of a ten story building I'm going to be sorely disappointed in how much gravity doesn't care what I believe.

I say we form a group of "core guys" to bring back rational thought to the Warpath. We're not pessimists, we're not optimists, we're not drinking Kool-Aid or Hater-Aid, we're fans with realistic viewpoints, rational thought and a heart for our team.

Warpathers for Rational Thought (WRT)? The Warpath Foundation for Balanced and Rational Thought (TWBRT)? I dunno, is someone better with acronyms than I am? Warpathers Against Pessimism and Optimism (WAPO)?

I'm really not sure what was so great about the post you responded to that rendered it worthy of your "best post on the Warpath in a long, long time" designation, or what about it inspired you to suggest starting a select "rational" thread group. The bottom line is that the guy who started this thread, whose post was essentially attacked by the guy whose post you loved so much, basically suggested the same thing--that game predictions come with a wee bit of analysis. I agree witht the guy who started the thread.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT

I'm really not sure what was so great about the post you responded to that rendered it worthy of your "best post on the Warpath in a long, long time" designation, or what about it inspired you to suggest starting a select "rational" thread group. The bottom line is that the guy who started this thread, whose post was essentially attacked by the guy whose post you loved so much, basically suggested the same thing--that game predictions come with a wee bit of analysis. I agree witht the guy who started the thread.

Yeah I was going to say something similar. In the end, I'm essentially calling for a return to intelligent debate. Of course we can't predict the future or say with any certainty what's going to happen. If anybody thinks that's what I was suggesting when I started the thread, you need to go back and re-read.

But if you're an optimist, and you "believe" the Skins are going to make the playoffs, are you just going to state your belief on these boards over and over? Or are you actually going to say something that may PERSUADE others to believe the same thing you do?

You can't just say "I just believe it." You can't just say "for some reason, I think we'll win." That's not an argument, that doesn't persuade anybody. Give stats, cite examples, explain the hows and whys. THAT is what persuades.

I've seem some great posts within this thread. It's nice to see. We're not attacking optimists and pessimists anymore, we're discussing and analyzing the Redskins on a Redskins fan site.

[jamf]

Most people frequent this site to keep up on the latest redskins news, chat about the season and read about what kinky move AMD and his wife were doing this week when the kids interrupted them. when a thread with a debatable subject is created, we state our opinions. No one is directly trying to persuade people, we are just expressing what we believe.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But if you're an optimist, and you "believe" the Skins are going to make the playoffs, are you just going to state your belief on these boards over and over? Or are you actually going to say something that may PERSUADE others to believe the same thing you do?

You can't just say "I just believe it." You can't just say "for some reason, I think we'll win." That's not an argument, that doesn't persuade anybody. Give stats, cite examples, explain the hows and whys. THAT is what persuades.

Why can't we say that? You did in your very next post and the example you cite is we've been close all year...
What makes you think campbell will connect when he has an open WR?
What makes you think our oline is going to give the WR enough time to run downfield?

Originally Posted by Schneed10

- If Santana Moss and Randle El both play this weekend, and in games in the future, I think we have the capability to hit on some big plays which we weren't doing earlier in the year. Moss in particular has seen a lot of near-miss passes this year. Seems JC has just missed him on a number of throws. I'm still waiting for Moss to explode, because he's too good to put up 600 receiving yards as he's on pace for now.

There are something you just can't backup with stats or examples. How do you measure mental toughness of a team? If an underachieving team plays poorly for the first half of the season then finally play up to their potential the final half of the season, are they mentally though?

Originally Posted by Schneed10

- I think our mental toughness and character can lead to a very physical style of football down the stretch. I want to see JC open up the offense, but at the same time, when we're running I want to see extremely physical football. The mean streak can be taken up a notch. I just recall '05 when we just beat people up in December. And I remember last year when the line jelled and Betts strung together 5 100 yard games in a row. Portis has already started to get going, I can see us performing well in the run game down the stretch.

I believe the redskins are going to shock the cowboys tomorrow. Not because of a matchup we can exploit, because it's a rivalry! Weird things happen in a rivalry, unfortunately I have absolutely no definitive proof to persuade you.

The redskins will win tomorrow! HA!

[SmootSmack]

Why isn't this thread called F...The Haters? Why is there this assumption that those that have a reasonably optimistic outlook have no grasp of logic and rationality? Besides isn't a big part of being a fan having hope? How about we challenge the pessimists who come on here saying we won't win another game to explain rationally why they think that?

Will we make the playoffs? I'm not sure. I worry about a "trap game" like the Bears or Bills screwing us over. If we do make it, and I think we have a good shot, I think we'll make the playoffs by building off our accomplishments from last Sunday. The running game has to be our foundation. As long as that's strong it will allow our passing game to open up. If we don't make it, it will be because we will continue to end drives with field goals instead of touchdowns.

Making up for Sean Taylor is really the only injured player I'm worried about making up for, and it worries me quite a bit. He is arguably our most important player. He simply can't be replaced. I really don't know how Williams and Gray will scheme without him (by the way, did I hear Smoot might play Safety??). It is, in my opinion, our biggest obstacle over these next two or whatever weeks.

How will we beat the Cowboys? First of all, we have to play mistake free. No crippling penalties. If we lose, let it be because they beat us not that we beat ourselves. Secondly, we have to keep the ball out of Romo's hands so we'll need long, control the clock drives. But we also have to take some chances down the field. Test Roy Williams pass defense.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Why isn't this thread called F...The Haters? Why is there this assumption that those that have a reasonably optimistic outlook have no grasp of logic and rationality?

Because, to this point, the overly optimistic crowd has not been able to produce much in the way of hows or whys when making their claims that we'll still make the playoffs. In many threads, they're refusing to consider reality and simply allowing their hopes to govern their discussion here. I'd grown tired of those threads, so I started this one. And thanks to a few great posts (especially by JWSleep IMO), there's actually some rationality backing up the optimistic view.

If we're going to simply talk about our beliefs for what will happen with the team, we don't have much to talk about. The debate goes "I believe A." "Oh yeah, well I believe B. What makes you think A is right?" I dunno, I just believe A is going to happen. Why is B so great? I just believe it."

Not much going on in that discussion.

This isn't to say I don't have optimism. I posted a thread earlier saying how we need to come out and get extremely intense and physical with Dallas, and that gives us a fighting chance. I also agree that a loss here by no means knocks us out of the playoff picture. I also agree that Tampa is a VERY pivotal game.

Just thought it would be nice to get some real discussion going and get away from the bickering over kool-aid vs haterade, that's all.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Because, to this point, the overly optimistic crowd has not been able to produce much in the way of hows or whys when making their claims that we'll still make the playoffs. In many threads, they're refusing to consider reality and simply allowing their hopes to govern their discussion here. I'd grown tired of those threads, so I started this one. And thanks to a few great posts (especially by JWSleep IMO), there's actually some rationality backing up the optimistic view.

And the "haterade" drinkers have been churning out rational, coherent, and persuasive arguments? I don't know about you, but I've read an awful lot of "Gibbs be the worresest coach in the leeg," "the Redskins couldnt beet a hi-school teem," etc.

I've seen similar posts from some of the "overly optimistic crowd." On the whole, however, I think the overly optimistic crowd has been coming up with good arguments as to why we will make the playoffs. For example, people have gone into a fair amount of detail as to how our remaining schedule will play out, how other NFC contenders' schedules will play out, talked about our offensive line starting to gel, etc.