What angers us most about Sean Taylors death

[sandtrapjack]

Originally Posted by Mwoody85

.....I bet you were singing a different tune when Sean Taylor picked up gun charges.

No more than you were doing when Michael Irvin got caught with a joint and a hooker.

Lets not go there dude. I have always been very respectful of this site and extremely respectful of the Redskins organization as a whole.

Taylor was the best damn FS in the NFL. I knew it before he died, and I know it now that he is gone. And as much as I rooted against the Redskins, I would watch them to see ST "lay out the lumber" on someone. He was FUN to watch.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

What makes me so mad about this is that it was so fucking uneccessary. If they didnt want to kill him why take the damn gun and why shoot it. you could just point it at him and say get on the ground I am pretty sure he would have done what you said. Damn jackasses. I hope they fry and I hope it HURTS.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

What makes me so mad about this is that it was so fucking uneccessary. If they didnt want to kill him why take the damn gun and why shoot it. you could just point it at him and say get on the ground I am pretty sure he would have done what you said. Damn jackasses. I hope they fry and I hope it HURTS.

That's just it. If you're ever in a situation where you think "I might need a gun" then you probably should evaluate yourself. I own a firearm for protection, it's in my nightstand ( i don't have children). I'm not saying you shouldn't have one, I'm saying that if you are committing a crime and take a weapon, you are considering using it, either against whoever you are harming through the crime itself or any law enforcement that try and apprehend you. Either way, you are irredeemable and deserve whatever punishment you get.

[Hitmandm]

Aside for the human tragedy which is most important, what angers me as a football fan between the white lines is that we are robbed of seeing this guy turn into a once in a lifetime football player.

ST was special as a football player and unique in what he could do. How many decades are we going to have to wait to see another like him...if ever...and if that comes along, what are the oods he will be a Skin?

ST we will miss you

[Lady Brave]

Originally Posted by sandtrapjack

What pi*sses me off the MOST about the death of Sean Taylor is that if our justice system actually worked for the people instead of the thugs, Sean Taylor would be alive today.

This is from an Associated Press report on the suspects:



If they had PRIOR gun charges, then WTF were they doing out on in the streets? If the justice system would have done the job right and put these guys away when they displayed a tendency to carry DEADLY weapons and commit violent acts, then Sean would be here today. That right! If the justice system had done the job that the taxpayers are paying for, and done it right the FIRST time, this tragedy would never have happened.

The damn courts responsible for letting these guys "off" the last time are just as responsible as if they pulled the damn trigger.

Sorry, it just INFURIATES me to no end. This sensless killing could have been prevented.

The only problem with your argument is that none of the defendants have shown a history of assault.

I've been waiting for this argument to come up. I've worked in the courts and law enforcement for 16 years. I've pretty much heard it all and can't really get worked up over it anymore. Bottom line, everything starts at home. Stop expecting the courts to raise your children for you.

[sandtrapjack]

Originally Posted by Lady Brave

The only problem with your argument is that none of the defendants have shown a history of assault.

I've been waiting for this argument to come up. I've worked in the courts and law enforcement for 16 years. I've pretty much heard it all and can't really get worked up over it anymore. Bottom line, everything starts at home. Stop expecting the courts to raise your children for you.

Not expecting the courts to raise children. However I do expect and must insist that they hold people accountable for thier actions.

Thier job is to protect the public, plain and simple. Something went awry in this instance and Taylor paid the ultimate price.

Where did you hear that the defendants have not showm a history of assault? I have not heard that. That not withstanding, burgalry, theft and gun charges...hmmmm I can put 2 and 2 together and tell you that these are people who pose a clear and present danger to the public's safety. Hence get them off the street before they kill someone.

Too late.

So what do they tell Taylors family and little girl....

"OOPS" is about all they could muster.

How many times in our society have we witnessed this same string of circumstances? Person convicted of gun charges in January, is arrested for murder with a firearm in June. How many? Check CNN.COM and yo uwill see a story like this almost every day.

A registered sex offender/rapist is arrested and charged with kidnapping a little girl, raping and killing her.

It just happens too often in our society. And I am not talking about isolated instances/offenses. Hundreds of MULTIPLE OFFENDERS are let go with probation, or, poor management in the system.

And that is the reason I read that some of the posters here keep a gun in thier night stand. And why Taylor kept a weapon in his bedroom. Because there are a**hole predators out there put back in society by our courts, when thier criminal heistory clearly dictates that they be incarcerated.

I cannot accept "jail/prison over crowding" as an excuse, or, going to war is taking away funds to build new prisons. Capital offenses are at the state level and part of the state judicial systems and not the federal gov't. I cannot accept these excuses becasue this problem has been going on for generations and nothing has been done about it. They just say "overcrowding" and take that as an acceptable excuse. It's not.

China maybe an oppresive gov't, but when it comes to crime, especially violent crime, they are quick and decisive. Commit a violent crime in China, you are part of the weekly executions. Two bullets in the back of the head. And the expense of the bullets is charges to the condemned's family. Harsh and cold....yes. But that country has the largest population in the world, but has the LOWEST crime rate.

[Lady Brave]

Originally Posted by sandtrapjack

Not expecting the courts to raise children. However I do expect and must insist that they hold people accountable for thier actions.

Thier job is to protect the public, plain and simple. Something went awry in this instance and Taylor paid the ultimate price.

Where did you hear that the defendants have not showm a history of assault? I have not heard that. That not withstanding, burgalry, theft and gun charges...hmmmm I can put 2 and 2 together and tell you that these are people who pose a clear and present danger to the public's safety. Hence get them off the street before they kill someone.

Too late.

So what do they tell Taylors family and little girl....

"OOPS" is about all they could muster.

How many times in our society have we witnessed this same string of circumstances? Person convicted of gun charges in January, is arrested for murder with a firearm in June. How many? Check CNN.COM and yo uwill see a story like this almost every day.

A registered sex offender/rapist is arrested and charged with kidnapping a little girl, raping and killing her.

It just happens too often in our society. And I am not talking about isolated instances/offenses. Hundreds of MULTIPLE OFFENDERS are let go with probation, or, poor management in the system.

And that is the reason I read that some of the posters here keep a gun in thier night stand. And why Taylor kept a weapon in his bedroom. Because there are a**hole predators out there put back in society by our courts, when thier criminal heistory clearly dictates that they be incarcerated.

I cannot accept "jail/prison over crowding" as an excuse, or, going to war is taking away funds to build new prisons. Capital offenses are at the state level and part of the state judicial systems and not the federal gov't. I cannot accept these excuses becasue this problem has been going on for generations and nothing has been done about it. They just say "overcrowding" and take that as an acceptable excuse. It's not.

China maybe an oppresive gov't, but when it comes to crime, especially violent crime, they are quick and decisive. Commit a violent crime in China, you are part of the weekly executions. Two bullets in the back of the head. And the expense of the bullets is charges to the condemned's family. Harsh and cold....yes. But that country has the largest population in the world, but has the LOWEST crime rate.

You know jack, I had a really long response to this, but just couldn't bring myself to post it. Unless you've worked in criminal justice, you will never understand it.

I will address a couple of points you raised though. (bolded)

Rivera is the only juvenile and the only one who had a prior weapons possession charge. All the other defendant's had prior theft and drug related charges. None of them have been charged with assault as far as I know. I supposed I could run their NCIC backgrounds while I'm sitting here, but I don't think the FBI would appreciate that very much right now.

As far the courts releasing defendants who you feel should be locked away, you do realized that judges are bound by sentencing guidelines right? Who makes up those guidelines? Politicians. It's not the judges sitting on the bench. Politcians like to stay in office, so that means they don't like raising taxes, which means they don't want to ask for money to build all the prisons it would take for us to put away all the people you feel should be locked up. Hence, that's why sentencing guidelines are becoming more and more relaxed. It's all about "rehab" and "alternatives to incarceration" now. They cost less to operate and that makes the public happy.

As to your assertions on prison overcrowding. I'm sitting here in an overcrowded detention facility right now. It's not an excuse. It's a reality. We have a rated capacity of 671 inmates and we're currently housing over 900. We need a jail desperately, but the public doesn't want to pay for it. If you have any suggestions on how to eleviate our overcrowding problem and make society as a whole understand the importance of funding our inmate population, then I'm all ears.

[sandtrapjack]

Originally Posted by Lady Brave

You know jack, I had a really long response to this, but just couldn't bring myself to post it. Unless you've worked in criminal justice, you will never understand it.

I will address a couple of points you raised though. (bolded)

Rivera is the only juvenile and the only one who had a prior weapons possession charge. All the other defendant's had prior theft and drug related charges. None of them have been charged with assault as far as I know. I supposed I could run their NCIC backgrounds while I'm sitting here, but I don't think the FBI would appreciate that very much right now.

As far the courts releasing defendants who you feel should be locked away, you do realized that judges are bound by sentencing guidelines right? Who makes up those guidelines? Politicians. It's not the judges sitting on the bench. Politcians like to stay in office, so that means they don't like raising taxes, which means they don't want to ask for money to build all the prisons it would take for us to put away all the people you feel should be locked up. Hence, that's why sentencing guidelines are becoming more and more relaxed. It's all about "rehab" and "alternatives to incarceration" now. They cost less to operate and that makes the public happy.

As to your assertions on prison overcrowding. I'm sitting here in an overcrowded detention facility right now. It's not an excuse. It's a reality. We have a rated capacity of 671 inmates and we're currently housing over 900. We need a jail desperately, but the public doesn't want to pay for it. If you have any suggestions on how to eleviate our overcrowding problem and make society as a whole understand the importance of funding our inmate population, then I'm all ears.

Then I shall partially yield to your experience. I knew all that you stated already, but it does not mean it is right, or just.

You say it is not an excuse it is a reality. You are absolutlely, 100%, no arguement from me CORRECT. But does that mean we have to accept it? Does it mean we say "there's nothing we can do, so accept it."?

Yes judges have guidelines, and yes those guidelines are established by poiliticians. Politicians that are elected to office. So I guess that means it is our fault. We have taken it from the home, taken it from the justice system and come full circle right back into the publics lap. Since we elected the officials who are making these guidelines, right?

Which is my answer to your statement about suggestions. My answer is I am doing all that I can and it starts in my home. I teach my children the difference between right and wrong. When they were young my wife and I made a point that when they walked through the door from school, a friends house, or anywhere, one of us was always home. My wife put her career on hold for 16 years so we could do just that. It was important to us, and them. The other thing that I do....vote. I vote for those officials who are tough on crime. I vote for those officials whose platform is crime reduction.

But you have justified my first post in this thread. You said that Rivera had a previous gun charge? Well it is being reported by CNN that Rivera is the alledged shooter. So we have a man with a previous weapons charge, back on the street and the first thing he did was get a gun and go shoot someone. I don't care if people think it was intentional or not. If he did not intend to use a gun then why did he put bullets in it? Or even take it along? Answer is he had it just in case he DID need to shoot someone. He had made up his mind that if he felt he needed to he was going to shoot someone.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Lady Brave

The only problem with your argument is that none of the defendants have shown a history of assault.

I've been waiting for this argument to come up. I've worked in the courts and law enforcement for 16 years. I've pretty much heard it all and can't really get worked up over it anymore. Bottom line, everything starts at home. Stop expecting the courts to raise your children for you.

Amen to that.

When I was a cop I routinely got calls where the parents expected me to solve their child's misbehavior. I got calls because a kid was misbehaving at the mall, because a teenager threw a cup at a wall in his room, and more often then not because the kid was mouthing off and being a little douchebag.

Early on I tried being nice, professional, compassionate and so on, only to realize it was an utter waste of time and logically impossible for me to have ANY impact on these kids in my 5-10 minute run in.

My last week on the job, I got a call where a mother was complaining that her 15 year old daughter wouldn't behave, wouldn't clean up her room and was "givin' me lip." I got on scene and the mother marched over and told me to go talk to her daughter and straighten her out, all the while shouting back to her daughter that I was "gonna fix things."

I walked up to the woman, looked her right in the eye, waited for her to stop shouting, and said "M'aam, I can't undue in 5 minutes what you've spent the last 15 years screwing up." I then turned around and left.

Long anecdote, but my point is, along with Lady Brave, this stuff starts at home, not in the courts, not on the streets, but in the living rooms and bedrooms of urban and suburban America.

The fault rests on the parents.

[sandtrapjack]

Originally Posted by mheisig

"M'aam, I can't undue in 5 minutes what you've spent the last 15 years screwing up."

Best line right there! I love it!

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by sandtrapjack

Best line right there! I love it!

I wish I could claim the idea was originally mine, but I heard it from one of my training officers. Never had the balls to say it until I'd be on a little while.

[squrrelco3]

I think the thing that infuriates me the most is if Sean is the type of guy that everyone who knew him says he was, then he probably would've just given these duchebags the money if they really needed it that bad and had just asked for it instead of trying to steal it.

[Daseal]

They need them for their own protection because they live criminal lifestyles. SO they need a gun because the homeowner they're trying to rob might legally own a gun for legitimate self defense? How do you even type that? That argument doesn't hold water with me. You kill someone in their own home, you get executed. Not in 20 years, as soon as you're found guilty. Walk 'em outside and line em up against the wall. I know that's harsh but who deserves our sympathy? The victim or the murderer?

Uh, exactly. Homeowner might own a gun, so I better carry a gun. Listen, I'm not going to go into anyone house and rob it, but if you can't see the line of reasoning behind that, you clearly have something blurred in there. If you're a robber, and don't have a weapon for intimidation, you won't do very well for yourself. It's not something I like, but it's pretty common human nature. You carry a gun when going into dangerous situations. Yes, let's just execute everyone, that's a great idea. Looking at the numbers there are hardly any people found innocent on death row... oh wait. Namely the poor folks who can't afford DNA testing are the ones the end up in jail for life even if they didn't commit the crime. I don't understand this "Lets just toss SOMEBODY in jail!" type mentality. I'd rather have 1000 guilty people set free than one innocent person found guilty.

Sandtrapjack: Do you have a link. I want to know exactly what happened with these guys. You make it sound like they were constantly arrested. I'm not sure I buy it to be honest. These guys are complete losers, no doubt. And deserve the book that the judge will hopefully throw at them. I want these guys locked up, don't get it twisted. However, I don't think they're the hardened criminal you think they are, you keep using words like arrested, charges, etc. I'm not seeing where you say "convicted" anywhere, and that's an important word. When you go into court they can't say "You were suspected of this, thus your penalty will be harsher."

[xkaotikx]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Uh, exactly. Homeowner might own a gun, so I better carry a gun. Listen, I'm not going to go into anyone house and rob it, but if you can't see the line of reasoning behind that, you clearly have something blurred in there. If you're a robber, and don't have a weapon for intimidation, you won't do very well for yourself. It's not something I like, but it's pretty common human nature. You carry a gun when going into dangerous situations. Yes, let's just execute everyone, that's a great idea. Looking at the numbers there are hardly any people found innocent on death row... oh wait. Namely the poor folks who can't afford DNA testing are the ones the end up in jail for life even if they didn't commit the crime. I don't understand this "Lets just toss SOMEBODY in jail!" type mentality. I'd rather have 1000 guilty people set free than one innocent person found guilty.

Sandtrapjack: Do you have a link. I want to know exactly what happened with these guys. You make it sound like they were constantly arrested. I'm not sure I buy it to be honest. These guys are complete losers, no doubt. And deserve the book that the judge will hopefully throw at them. I want these guys locked up, don't get it twisted. However, I don't think they're the hardened criminal you think they are, you keep using words like arrested, charges, etc. I'm not seeing where you say "convicted" anywhere, and that's an important word. When you go into court they can't say "You were suspected of this, thus your penalty will be harsher."

With the age these kids were, I doubt their first instinct was to kill Sean Taylor. They've probably never robbed a house before and weren't expecting to see anyone there. Therefore, they panicked and just shot, without the intention of killing...as they said. I can believe this story, but I don't know about anyone else.

[sandtrapjack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Sandtrapjack: Do you have a link. I want to know exactly what happened with these guys. You make it sound like they were constantly arrested. I'm not sure I buy it to be honest. These guys are complete losers, no doubt. And deserve the book that the judge will hopefully throw at them. I want these guys locked up, don't get it twisted. However, I don't think they're the hardened criminal you think they are, you keep using words like arrested, charges, etc. I'm not seeing where you say "convicted" anywhere, and that's an important word. When you go into court they can't say "You were suspected of this, thus your penalty will be harsher."

Nope no link. Just what is being put out there in the papers. Nothing takes away from the fact that the accused had a criminal background that included burglary, theft and gun related crimes. The ages of the accused indicate that they were juveniles when their previous indiscretions occured. Those records are sealed. So that is why you won't see the word "convicted" in the papers.

Now when they are arraigned in Miami, they will make the decision whther or not to try the juveniles as adults. If that happens, you will see those juvenile records opened and we will see what those previous crimes actually were.

Not to mention that juvenile courts are much easier and less stringent on crimes in the hope of rehabilitaion at a young age.