Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

First, do you think Chad Johnson would become a locker room problem if: (a) the Redskins do not win a lot of games in 2008; or (b) Campbell doesn't throw the ball Chad's way 5-6 times per game?

Second, would you have wanted the Redskins to retain Brandon Lloyd had he been a Pro Bowl caliber wideout?

Fairly or not, I was implying that Chad Johnson is a highly productive version of Brandon Lloyd. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted the Redskins to retain Brandon Lloyd even if he was putting up T.O. type numbers.

I don't know the answer to your first question. I mean this offseason is really the first we've heard of Chad Johnson being a divisive presence in the locker room. And a lot of that is based off a false claim of a fight that never took place. But if he's unhappy, I don't doubt he'll voice his displeasure. Just like many other stars (even on our team).

As for part 2 to your question. Brandon Lloyd reportedly would yell at the administrative and personal assistants at Redskins Park, for no reason. I don't know that CJ does that. But apart from that, if Brandon Lloyd could produce the way Chad Johnson has then yes I could definitely be happy with that. That's why we brought him here, to produce on the field. I mean if either one had real issues (see: PacMan Jones) then no I wouldn't want either one.

If he's so disruptive don't you think the Bengals would be a bit more willing to let him go? I think his production trumps his disruption.

But I'm not, to be clear, an adamant supporter of a trade for Chad Johnson. I think it has to be the right deal. I feel that the current deal is pretty fair. I wouldn't mind getting an extra pick from them, but the deal as it is isn't awful. If the Redskins were to trade their 1st and 2nd this year, that'd be a different story.

[memphisskin]

Chad Johnson won't be a locker room problem anywhere outside of Cincy. But trading two picks for one guy tells me 1) The Skins have an awful lot of confidence in Jim Zorn and 2) all the talk about learning was just that, talk.

This smells like a panic move, since the Giants won the SB and we beat the Giants then we can win the SB. But the transitive property works in math, not football.

Best move in the end, keep the picks and find a big body in the draft. Contrary to popular opinion, solid guys can be found in the later rounds too. Overpaying for Chad Johnson is so 2003 Dan Snyder.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't know the answer to your first question. I mean this offseason is really the first we've heard of Chad Johnson being a divisive presence in the locker room. And a lot of that is based off a false claim of a fight that never took place. But if he's unhappy, I don't doubt he'll voice his displeasure. Just like many other stars (even on our team).

This is the first offseason in which I've heard that Chad was a locker room problem. But, for several seasons Chad has shown that he is all too often willing to prop himself up at the expense of his team. Moreover, ESPN Radio just aired a segment in which a Bengals beat reporter basically said that the team has been dealing with Chad's "emotional issues" for quite some time, but the team has been concealing such problems. That same reporter also said that most players he's talked to acknowledge that there was some "locker room incident" involving Chad, but none would specify what occurred. The only player that has spoken to the issue (Shaun Smith) acknowledged that Chad tried to attack Hue Jackson and punched Marvin Lewis. Boomer Esiason reported that Chad got into a physical altercation with coaches. I'm not saying that Chad undoubtedly hit a coach.....but where there is smoke.

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

If he's so disruptive don't you think the Bengals would be a bit more willing to let him go? I think his production trumps his disruption.

I think the Bengals believe his production trumps his disruption, but aren't they a shining example as to why character matters? Their team is in tatters, their locker room appears divided, and they are reaping what they have sown. True, Chad hasn't been in trouble with the law. But, I think character evaluations should be based on more than one's rap sheet.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

This is the first offseason in which I've heard that Chad was a locker room problem. But, for several seasons Chad has shown that he is all too often willing to prop himself up at the expense of his team. Moreover, ESPN Radio just aired a segment in which a Bengals beat reporter basically said that the team has been dealing with Chad's "emotional issues" for quite some time, but the team has been concealing such problems. That same reporter also said that most players he's talked to acknowledge that there was some "locker room incident" involving Chad, but none would specify what occurred. The only player that has spoken to the issue (Shaun Smith) acknowledged that Chad tried to attack Hue Jackson and punched Marvin Lewis. Boomer Esiason reported that Chad got into a physical altercation with coaches. I'm not saying that Chad undoubtedly hit a coach.....but where there is smoke.

Fair enough on the ESPN Radio part. Shaun Smith has on multiple occassions thrown teammates (past and present) under the bus. I have complete disregard for anything he says quite honestly. I think Esiason is being a little loose with the term "altercation." I believe what happened is what Hue Jackson and Chad Johnson have said, that Chad Johnson got "emotional" and Hue Jackson restrained him to calm him down. The actual events none of us know. But what shouldn't be overlooked is that Chad Johnson has publicly apologized for creating a stir during that halftime and said it was inappropriate. I know some people here are all gung-ho about pointing out that Jared Allen apologized for his multiple DUIs and league suspension. So let's not dismiss that CJ apologized for "acting up" in a locker room.

I think the Bengals believe his production trumps his disruption, but aren't they a shining example as to why character matters? Their team is in tatters, their locker room appears divided, and they are reaping what they have sown. True, Chad hasn't been in trouble with the law. But, I think character evaluations should be based on more than one's rap sheet.

Good points. But it also adds to my point that Johnson wants out of there because the team culture is a mess.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Warren85Ellard

Chad Johnson would be a nightmare for a brand new coach and a developing QB. Stick with the draft.

Why would he be a nightmare?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I think you'd be hard pressed to find 1 #3 wideout who posted ARE's numbers last year.

Well of course I would be hard pressed to do that. But ARE was the #2 wideout in '07. 51 receptions are about the norm for a #3 wr.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Well of course I would be hard pressed to do that. But ARE was the #2 wideout in '07. 51 receptions are about the norm for a #3 wr.

Well you said ARE produced like a "seldom used #3." I don't think you'll find any #3 who put up ARE's 2007 stats, let alone a "seldom used #3." I doubt more than half of the #2s in the league put up better stats than ARE in 2007. He did just fine IMO.

[GTripp0012]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

ARE ranked 15th in (per play) DVOA and 24th in DPAR (total value) last season. Of course, I think you could make the argument that he was our Number One WR last year, but 12 teams did not have any receivers as strong as ARE was last season.

It was probably a career year for him as he's best suited to be a no. 2 or no. 3, but he's totally capable of staying in the No. 2 role if we need him.

[mooby]

51 receptions the norm for a #3 wideout? That's crazy talk imo, I'd consider that the exception, not the norm. I think ARE would put up better numbers as the #3 because that's probably his most natural position. I asked this question earlier in the thread but it didn't seem to be answered. Is this Danny/Vinny wanting Chad or is this Danny/Vinny/Zorny wanting Chad? I think I'd be ok giving up a first and a third for Chad if Zorn wanted him and thought he would fit into the WCO, but if this was just Dan and Vinny wanting Chad because he's the big name guy and they think he'd solve their problems, but Zorn wasn't on board then I probably wouldn't want it to happen. What if we did get Chad but he didn't fit into the system and wasn't able to be productive? I mean there's a slim chance of that happening but the possibility exists. I'm still hurting over giving up a third and a fourth for B-Lloyd, I don't want to invest heavily in another wideout and then find out that he can't be productive for us.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by mooby

I asked this question earlier in the thread but it didn't seem to be answered. Is this Danny/Vinny wanting Chad or is this Danny/Vinny/Zorny wanting Chad? I think I'd be ok giving up a first and a third for Chad if Zorn wanted him and thought he would fit into the WCO, but if this was just Dan and Vinny wanting Chad because he's the big name guy and they think he'd solve their problems, but Zorn wasn't on board then I probably wouldn't want it to happen.

I heard on ESPN's Redskins Radio that all HC candidates were told that the team was going to target a #1 WR like Chad. All signs indicate that the trade for Chad was conceived and orchestrated by Vinny and/or Snyder.

Originally Posted by mooby

What if we did get Chad but he didn't fit into the system and wasn't able to be productive? I mean there's a slim chance of that happening but the possibility exists. I'm still hurting over giving up a third and a fourth for B-Lloyd, I don't want to invest heavily in another wideout and then find out that he can't be productive for us.

I would be nothing short of stunned if Chad wasn't highly productive for at least two years. My concern isn't with Chad being unproductive, it's with the price (in terms of cap space and draft picks) to acquire him, the risk that he would disrupt locker room chemistry, and the possibility that he could have a TO-like meltdown.

[skinsfan_nn]

Originally Posted by mooby

51 receptions the norm for a #3 wideout? That's crazy talk imo, I'd consider that the exception, not the norm. I think ARE would put up better numbers as the #3 because that's probably his most natural position. I asked this question earlier in the thread but it didn't seem to be answered. Is this Danny/Vinny wanting Chad or is this Danny/Vinny/Zorny wanting Chad? I think I'd be ok giving up a first and a third for Chad if Zorn wanted him and thought he would fit into the WCO, but if this was just Dan and Vinny wanting Chad because he's the big name guy and they think he'd solve their problems, but Zorn wasn't on board then I probably wouldn't want it to happen. What if we did get Chad but he didn't fit into the system and wasn't able to be productive? I mean there's a slim chance of that happening but the possibility exists. I'm still hurting over giving up a third and a fourth for B-Lloyd, I don't want to invest heavily in another wideout and then find out that he can't be productive for us.

Well I think at least at first it was very clear who wanted CJ Vinny and Dan or vise versa. I'm sure either way Zorn would be on board, although he would and should have input (why would he not, this has been a main area of concern the team has stated for some time and get the chance to get an elite WR?). That is ultimately Vinny's job to bring in the talent as our GM/VP but a group decision with Dan's blessings.

And you sure can't compare CJ to Lloyd, CJ has a proven track record in this league of being an elite WR on the field, as much as I like or don't like him he is one of the very best at his position that requires ultimate respect from opponents. Lloyd for the most part was an unproven WR, and as we all know turned out being still unproven/no good, with a whole lot more cash in his banking account or a rich bust.

I have mixed feelings on this one, but the more I think about this potential trade if it where to ever happen (Which by the way I doubt it will) I would not have a problem giving up a late first round draft pick and next years third for CJ. IF the contract isn't crazy AND their are contract clauses that if he becomes an issue. I'm sure the Redskins and all other NFL teams for that matter have learned from the TO, philly ordeal.

[Warren85Ellard]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Why would he be a nightmare?

Jim Zorn will be trying to establish himself as the leader and he'll face many challenges. He has huge shoes to fill and is inheriting a team that was very loyal to Gibbs and Williams. Zorn doesn't need a self-absorbed hot head like Ocho Sinco adding fuel to the fire if things go wrong. Jason Campbell is learning yet another offense. If Chad Johnson can't deal with Carson Palmer, is he going to keep his mouth shut if Campbell isn't getting him the ball? Chad Johnson is obviously very talented, but I don't think he's worth the risk (or the draft picks).

[T.O.Killa]

I dont believe that the Redskins ever made this offer. I believe that it is Drew Rosenhous using the Reskins as a tool,to get his client out of Cincinati. The offer is outlandish for a player over 30. I know many people will tell say that a reciever can play well into their thirties, but teams just dont give that kind of comprnsation for potential trouble maker stars like Chad. Dont get me wrong, I would love to see Chad in B&G. Just look at a superstar like Deangelo Hall. They only gave up a second rounder for him. A talent that is usualy found in the top of the first round. He is only twenty four.

[SC Skins Fan]

I'm going to say this once, because it just occurred to me, and I'm sure I'll get blasted by some, but whatever.

Chad Johnson is a funny guy; outspoken, gregarious, playful. In fact, his touchdown celebrations are not totally unlike Clinton Portis dressing up as wacky characters on Wednesdays in 2005 ... the guy is keeping it loose. He had a few VERY publicized spats with Carson Palmer during games but, newsflash, receivers tend to do things like that - Santana Moss can get pretty moody, if not as vocal (largely a product of the fact that they only see the play from a very small perspective and don't see all the things going on around the LOS I think, but I digress). But he has never been in trouble with the law, he has not had injury problems, he has been to multiple Pro Bowls, put up HOF numbers quite frankly.

Now what happened last year is that the the media in Cincinnati jumped on Chad and started blaming his antics - which somehow were never a problem when the team was winning back in 2005 and everyone thought they were pretty funny then - were the cause of Cincy's troubles (as opposed to the non-existent run game or wretched defense). Chad Johnson took great offense to that and stopped talking to the local press. This situation seems vaguely familiar ... like Sean Taylor's distrust of the media. Now Taylor decided not to talk at all, but that is not Chad Johnson ... the guy is a character ... and also represented by Drew Rosenhaus ... so he is making a play to get out of town.

I think if he comes to D.C. all the haters - those who don't hurl themselves out of a window - will embrace him the same way that they have embraced Clinton Portis. Both are characters. Both are elite talents. Both produce on the field. I think all the hatred directed at Chad Johnson is misguided, and as I said, not totally unlike some of the representations made about Sean Taylor that had us all up in arms. The guy is getting way too much hate heaped upon him, stop the madness.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Warren85Ellard

Jim Zorn will be trying to establish himself as the leader and he'll face many challenges. He has huge shoes to fill and is inheriting a team that was very loyal to Gibbs and Williams. Zorn doesn't need a self-absorbed hot head like Ocho Sinco adding fuel to the fire if things go wrong. Jason Campbell is learning yet another offense. If Chad Johnson can't deal with Carson Palmer, is he going to keep his mouth shut if Campbell isn't getting him the ball? Chad Johnson is obviously very talented, but I don't think he's worth the risk (or the draft picks).

I don't know that Chad Johnson can't deal with Palmer. I mean, his stats certainly show that he dealt with Palmer. Yeah, they had that one argument on the sidelines and they had a little spat last week. But really I don't think CJ at any point has said he can't play with Carson Palmer.

I think that Campbell can really benefit from having a top WR like Chad Johnson. Maybe it's just me, but I think (from what I've seen) CJ-unlike say Randy Moss-doesn't let up on the field because he's upset off the field. He may not be as good an option as say Boldin or Williams but I don't see him holding Campbell's progress back.