Understanding the Issues: Education

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

There are often reasons for those people that make poor life decisions... chances are they grew up in an environment with little to no guidance and no solid role models in place to help form their decision making process in to one of a responsible person.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but I think it's important to consider that some people didn't have the same guidance and solid support system in place during their formative years.

That sounds an awful lot like saying:

Because kids grew up in a broken home, they should continue to be treated as children once they are 18 years old, because they never learned to be a responsible adult.

I don't buy it. By the time you hit 18, your free pass expires. You're expected to be responsible and make wise choices.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

That sounds an awful lot like saying:

Because kids grew up in a broken home, they should continue to be treated as children once they are 18 years old, because they never learned to be a responsible adult.

I don't buy it. By the time you hit 18, your free pass expires. You're expected to be responsible and make wise choices.

No I'm not saying that at all, it's not the black and white issue you seem to be trying to make it. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass because of their past, but it's definitely a reason to keep in mind why some people make the decisions that they do. It's easy for someone from a solid background to sit here and say the things that you are saying.

Of course someone can be expected to make wise choices, but when you've never been shown the way to make wise choices, it kind of complicates things a bit.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

No I'm not saying that at all, it's not the black and white issue you seem to be trying to make it. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass because of their past, but it's definitely a reason to keep in mind why some people make the decisions that they do. It's easy for someone from a solid background to sit here and say the things that you are saying.

Of course someone can be expected to make wise choices, but when you've never been shown the way to make wise choices, it kind of complicates things a bit.

I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.

But that's exactly what subsidized after-school care for people working full-time is - "a handup, not a handout". It's not a check from the feds to be spent on the parents at the expense of the kids. It's a way for people looking to provide for their family who don't want to put their kids on the street at 2:30p every day.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.

I totally agree. I'm not saying the gov't needs to "take care" of these people for the rest of their lives, I just think some people need a helping hand at times and should receive the help they need.

The fact is our social services programs stink and they don't address the root problems. But that's a problem with lack of funding and with our society at large that tends to be reactive rather than proactive. Until the root issues are addressed we'll always have these problems, it's just an endless cycle.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I totally agree. I'm not saying the gov't needs to "take care" of these people for the rest of their lives, I just think some people need a helping hand at times and should receive the help they need.

The fact is our social services programs stink and they don't address the root problems. But that's a problem with lack of funding and with our society at large that tends to be reactive rather than proactive. Until the root issues are addressed we'll always have these problems, it's just an endless cycle.

Lets be honest and say what the real problem is. Its the parents and the lack of guidence, having children they cannot afford, signle parent families, etc... Just yeasterday here in our area a parent worked really hard to get parents together (in a low income area) to form a new PTA for their local school. Three other parents showed up on Monday night and this is a school with over 1,000 students. Thats the real problem and the problem within our schools These are not problems that the federal goverment can correct they are problems within each community which can only be fixed within the community. We have allready spent billions and all it has done is aided this behavior. If Obama is serious about chang then maybe we need to start holding the parents more accountable for their childrens action or lact of actions.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Lets be honest and say what the real problem is. Its the parents and the lack of guidence, having children they cannot afford, signle parent families, etc... Just yeasterday here in our area a parent worked really hard to get parents together (in a low income area) to form a new PTA for their local school. Three other parents showed up on Monday night and this is a school with over 1,000 students. Thats the real problem and the problem within our schools These are not problems that the federal goverment can correct they are problems within each community which can only be fixed within the community. We have allready spent billions and all it has done is aided this behavior. If Obama is serious about chang then maybe we need to start holding the parents more accountable for their childrens action or lact of actions.

How is that going to happen exactly?

If the gov't isn't helping how is a community supposed to fix things on their own? The gov't has to play a role somewhere along the way in terms of funding and social service programs.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

How is that going to happen exactly?

If the gov't isn't helping how is a community supposed to fix things on their own? The gov't has to play a role somewhere along the way in terms of funding and social service programs.

Well first I'm not saying do away with all federal programs but I don't want to add another program. Well the money used by the federal goverment came from people in the communities that they send the money back to for programs. The problem is the federal goverment eats away at the money because we have to pay for all those buildings and employees to process the money we send to them which they send back. That really makes good sense. So now that 4 dollars comes back as 1 dollar (thats just an example but I'm sure it not off by much). Maybe the federal goverment could just leave the money in the local goverment so they could provide the right services need for their area.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Lets be honest and say what the real problem is. Its the parents and the lack of guidence, having children they cannot afford, signle parent families, etc... Just yeasterday here in our area a parent worked really hard to get parents together (in a low income area) to form a new PTA for their local school. Three other parents showed up on Monday night and this is a school with over 1,000 students. Thats the real problem and the problem within our schools These are not problems that the federal goverment can correct they are problems within each community which can only be fixed within the community. We have allready spent billions and all it has done is aided this behavior. If Obama is serious about chang then maybe we need to start holding the parents more accountable for their childrens action or lact of actions.

ever think some of those parents are working second shift? or working 2 jobs? not everyone that is down, wants to be down. alot of these people are good, decent people. but it is a very hard cycle to break. yes, it can be broken, but it sometimes starts with a helping hand. remember, most of the decisions these people are making, are the same ones they have learned from their parents.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

ever think some of those parents are working second shift? or working 2 jobs? not everyone that is down, wants to be down. alot of these people are good, decent people. but it is a very hard cycle to break. yes, it can be broken, but it sometimes starts with a helping hand. remember, most of the decisions these people are making, are the same ones they have learned from their parents.

Yea, out of a 1,000 students all but three where working at their second job. Funny thing is the lady that is working so hard to form the PTA and trying to get parents involved is finding the time working THREE jobs. Your kind of thinking and making excuses for these people is part of the problem. I'm not saying your totaly wrong and that maybe some were working at there second job. This lady had notices out one month prior to their first meeting so thats still not a good excuse. By reading your post and others I think we all agree that these children need help because their parents are not doing their job its how they are helped we disagree on.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.

These people are 36.5 million strong according to the latest Census Bureau numbers (p. 19). Right now they're having to make decision whether to eat or put gas in the tank and while you and I can go to the grocery store and buy what we want they are increasingly unable to afford basic food (28 million Americans on food stamps).

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

No I'm not saying that at all, it's not the black and white issue you seem to be trying to make it. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass because of their past, but it's definitely a reason to keep in mind why some people make the decisions that they do. It's easy for someone from a solid background to sit here and say the things that you are saying.

Of course someone can be expected to make wise choices, but when you've never been shown the way to make wise choices, it kind of complicates things a bit.

I get what you're saying, and for the record I am for the idea of providing after-care to kids from low-income households. It's about the kids first and foremost.

But regarding the general discussion, do you really think you're 100% the product of your environment and upbringing? I don't, I think my parents provided guidance and tremendous support, which is a big part of getting a solid start in life. But at the same time, I also think I'm my own man. I've learned some things from my parents, but other things and decisions they'd make I totally disagree with. And I'd do it a different way. The difference is, no matter what decisions I make, I would never expect my parents to accept any responsibility for a bad decision I made. I grew up to make my own decisions. They guided me, but in the end, I OWN my decisions. And I'll stand by and accept the consequences of all of them.

I expect EVERYONE to do the same, regardless of upbringing. Be your own man and don't cop out.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I get what you're saying, and for the record I am for the idea of providing after-care to kids from low-income households. It's about the kids first and foremost.

But regarding the general discussion, do you really think you're 100% the product of your environment and upbringing? I don't, I think my parents provided guidance and tremendous support, which is a big part of getting a solid start in life. But at the same time, I also think I'm my own man. I've learned some things from my parents, but other things and decisions they'd make I totally disagree with. And I'd do it a different way. The difference is, no matter what decisions I make, I would never expect my parents to accept any responsibility for a bad decision I made. I grew up to make my own decisions. They guided me, but in the end, I OWN my decisions. And I'll stand by and accept the consequences of all of them.

I expect EVERYONE to do the same, regardless of upbringing. Be your own man and don't cop out.

100%? No. But I'm not going to even venture a guess or try to assign a percentage as to how much your environment and upbringing contributes. I would say that it's very critical though.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

100%? No. But I'm not going to even venture a guess or try to assign a percentage as to how much your environment and upbringing contributes. I would say that it's very critical though.

And I would say if people are not willing to take 100% responsibility for their actions and decisions, and instead choose to place blame on others, they're not worth helping.

Anyone who recognizes that their actions put them in a bad situation, they've probably learned from it. And I'm all for helping them. Take the mortgage crisis. If people weren't properly educated by lenders that their payments will increase in 5 years when the adjustable term expires, and they now realize that they needed to ask more questions and be more scrutinizing when acquiring financing, then I'm all for helping to bail them out. But if people want to point fingers at the lenders and call themselves a victim, that indicates a person who is likely to repeat the same mistake.

In order to truly learn from a bad decision, you have to recognize the ways in which you could have prevented the bad decision from being made. In the case of mortgages, the realization has to be that next time I'm going to be mindful of all the ways in which my monthly payment can potentially change.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And I would say if people are not willing to take 100% responsibility for their actions and decisions, and instead choose to place blame on others, they're not worth helping.

Anyone who recognizes that their actions put them in a bad situation, they've probably learned from it. And I'm all for helping them. Take the mortgage crisis. If people weren't properly educated by lenders that their payments will increase in 5 years when the adjustable term expires, and they now realize that they needed to ask more questions and be more scrutinizing when acquiring financing, then I'm all for helping to bail them out. But if people want to point fingers at the lenders and call themselves a victim, that indicates a person who is likely to repeat the same mistake.

In order to truly learn from a bad decision, you have to recognize the ways in which you could have prevented the bad decision from being made. In the case of mortgages, the realization has to be that next time I'm going to be mindful of all the ways in which my monthly payment can potentially change.

But there's no difference between your scenario and someone who grew up without any guidance and made a bad choice, but who now wants help establishing the very environment you and I were lucky enough to have as youths.