Mark Sanchez at 13th?

[53Fan]

BHA. Sometimes a wise man just has to realize his folly and stop pursuing it.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Bottom line here is folks, a new QB no matter who he is isn't going to fix the other issues we have. You build a team from the inside out. Build up the lines and build a strong supporting cast and you can put a decent QB back there and get quality production and win games. Put a good QB behind a bad line with no help around him, and he's going to play to the level of the rest of the offense, simple as that.

Super Bowl Winning QB Mark Rypien agrees

If we draft Sanchez I might have to take a step back from being a Skins fan for a while. That's how ticked I will be, I'll have one foot out the door.

Great...then what fan site would I go to? I wouldn't be so down if they drafted him at 13. It's trading up to get him that would concern me.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Please let this be a smoke screen, or even just due diligence.

Agreed 100%, one glimmer of hope, we did bring in J. Russell an nothing happened there.

[CRedskinsRule]

BHA, do you think Sanchez will be "Franchise" great, or great because he is the best in this draft?
Another way to phrase it, If Sanchez had taken Carrol's supposed advice and stayed in till next year, would you be advocating wait for him next year, or get the next best one after Stafford?
I think you want a Superstar qb so bad, and you know in your heart JC isn't it, that you are willing to take just about any qb out there and proclaim him the next "Franchise".

My answers to my questions:
Sanchez is not a sure hit franchise player.
If he came out next year he might be the 4th best behind Tebow and others.

Further, he knows that, and knows that this year he can get top 10 money and like a smart business man, he is catching the cash now.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Great...then what fan site would I go to? I wouldn't be so down if they drafted him at 13. It's trading up to get him that would concern me.

Y Hello Der

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Agreed 100%, one glimmer of hope, we did bring in J. Russell an nothing happened there.

Yeah but Snyder didn't love Russell (aka Shaq jr without the flair). Apparently with Sanchez (who seems to be the anti-Leinart in that he doesn't let partying get in the way of football) Snyder has found his guy. Honestly I'm kind of intrigued, especially with that quick release and mobility thats part of his pocket awareness, but at the same time I would love to see the team get a starting quality Tackle.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

No, it doesnt, because i'm not alone. Multipe sources were sited as saying this a year ago. Every paid professional that i can recall reading questioned the move, and JCs ability to transiton. While no one on this forum seems to share my view, its a common belief in other forums i visit and amongst my friends. So really, the only place where i go that i don't find anyone beleiving this simple fact is here. It doesnt bother me at all, but i do wonder why you cant see something thats clear as day to me. I guess everyone is entitled to beleive what they want some people are convinced in a God, others are convinced the mere notion is completely idiotic. Both views can't be right, but staunch supporters of either position will never be convinced that the other side is right. I view it as a similar situation here. From my POV, you have blind faith in Campbells success in this system. In my view, all the evidence points to the contrary. Im open to every possibility, but i won't beleive it until i see it.


I agree with what you say about Heyer vs Jason based on their starting point (Campbell-High, Heyer-Low) but for those same reasons, i feel the ceiling is lower for Campbell than it is for Heyer. Campbell clearly showed what he was capeable of, which is why he was drafted so high. With Heyer, he has much more room to improve, if that makes sense.


Excluding the draft, i dont think we could make significant improvements over either Heyer or Campbell, so improving on either of them prior to the drafu is a non-issue.


"No one" on this forum seems to think Sanchez would be an upgrade over Campbell... but that doesnt mean "no one." Obviously, there arent alot of people making direct comparisons out there, but most teams have Sanchez rated as the best QB in the draft. The Lions are the only team that seems to prefer Stafford and i'm not really sure why... oh, thats right - they're the Lions. Anyway, with Campbell, we know what we're getting. He's a classy mild mannered guy who doesnt make mistakes. With Sanchez, we're getting a guy who has all the physical tools Campbell has, but with the "it" factor. He also has had the advantage of being in only one system the past 3 years.... as opposed to the 7? Campbells been in in the past 9?.


Interesting you bring that up, since CP was just talking about that.
Clinton Portis Talks Sanchez in Interview with NFL Live*crew - Hogs Haven

I've rambled on enough, but suffice to say, I'd be thrilled in that scenario: Let them compete for it, let them both make eachother better, and let the best man win.

You're a smart guy, BHA. You're just sufficiently been beaten at this QB discussion, and hardly just by myself, to the point where you are left clinging to non-points and non-realities in the hope that someone might join in soon.

But seriously, clinging to arguments like "it" factor and "ceiling space" are best left to those other fourms you speak of and the friends who will back your opinions no matter what you say. Here, you know, we tend to see that as less of a difference of opinion, and more of a "he's grasping for straws" kind of thing. I like to poke fun at myself and other people when things are said, but once you start using phrases like "can't handle the pressure" and "doesn't have 'it'" and "just a bad fit here", you are no longer making a reasonable argument.

I understand you may rationalize Campbell's continued presence under center as a poor scheme fit, but we can all see through it as a weak cop out because you obviously don't like the guy. We're not stupid, BHA. We've seen you suggest that we should bring in Chris Simms, trade multiple first round picks for Jay Cutler, and now trade up for Mark Sanchez. You can see as clearly as we can how much these things would hurt the team and you've even suggested that we'd be better off losing a ton of games in the short term than not improving the team for the next 5 years or so.

Obviously, that's indicitive of an inconsistent value system. Empircially, whether you like him or not, Jason Campbell is by far the best option for the short term health and possibly long term health of the franchise. Any move that pushes him to the side of the road hurts the team in the short term for sure, and likely the long term as well. The fact that you've been a proponent of not just one, but pretty much all ideas that do this makes it plain as day to me that you are less concerned about the success of this team the next two years than you are that we go at it with someone else than Campbell.

Basically once you perceive the VERY WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME FOR ALL THINGS CAMPBELL'S FUTURE, your position becomes defensable. And by the same token, you've pretty much wished the worst on the team you choose to root for. I can't understand how you and your buddies can sit around pontificating about how much better things will be when we get rid of JC, and that's not a philosophical difference.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Obviously, that's indicitive of an inconsistent value system. Empircially, whether you like him or not, Jason Campbell is by far the best option for the short term health and possibly long term health of the franchise. Any move that pushes him to the side of the road hurts the team in the short term for sure, and likely the long term as well. The fact that you've been a proponent of not just one, but pretty much all ideas that do this makes it plain as day to me that you are less concerned about the success of this team the next two years than you are that we go at it with someone else than Campbell.

Basically once you perceive the VERY WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME FOR ALL THINGS CAMPBELL'S FUTURE, your position becomes defensable. And by the same token, you've pretty much wished the worst on the team you choose to root for. I can't understand how you and your buddies can sit around pontificating about how much better things will be when we get rid of JC, and that's not a philosophical difference.

Its not that i feel any of my arguments have been proven wrong and i'm grasping at straws - its just that none of my previous arguments have done anything to sway you and there's no sense repeating the same arguments over and over again. I don't hate Campbell - I just dont think he's a good fit here and i am 100% certain he will be gone after this season at the latest - so why not move him now and get some value for him if we can? I'd rather get something for him now, than nothing for him later.

As to my friends - not a single one of them is a redskins fan. Most of them are lifelong Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Giants fans and we usually watch games at sports bars together or someones house. Alot of them are much older than me and i trust their input - not a one of them that ive talked tothinks Campbell will succeed in this offense, which agrees with what the paid professionals have been saying since we brought Zorn here.

As far as me wishing the worst for the team i root for, its quite the opposite. This franchise has been mediocre since Snyder took over and that will never ever change with Campbell at the helm - he is a guy that doesnt make many mistakes, thats it. He's too timid to ever become great. Campbell ensures this team stays mediocre. Going 9-7 or 10-6 and playing in the wild card game once every few years doesnt satisfy me. If it does you, then you should hang out with fans of consistently good teams and you'll realize what youre missing out on - continued success.

I'd rather risk taking a step back in 2009, have a franchise QB, and then build around him for 10-15 years than continue to hover around 8-8 for that same timespan. You can't get ahead in this game without taking a few chances.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Super Bowl Winning QB Mark Rypien agrees

How many superbowls did he win again? What team did he become a franchise QB for? what team was able to build around him for continued long-term success?

If you want to luck into a "one hit wonder" superbowl appearance and have a career of mediocrity, thats what Jason Campbell may give you. If you want continued success, we need to look elsewhere.

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

How many superbowls did he win again? What team did he become a franchise QB for? what team was able to build around him for continued long-term success?

If you want to luck into a "one hit wonder" superbowl appearance and have a career of mediocrity, thats what Jason Campbell may give you. If you want continued success, we need to look elsewhere.

Do you even have a job? My god the amount of time you spend on here is crazy. What the hell where you doing with yourself in Nov of 2008?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Its not that i feel any of my arguments have been proven wrong and i'm grasping at straws - its just that none of my previous arguments have done anything to sway you and there's no sense repeating the same arguments over and over again. I don't hate Campbell - I just dont think he's a good fit here and i am 100% certain he will be gone after this season at the latest - so why not move him now and get some value for him if we can? I'd rather get something for him now, than nothing for him later.

As to my friends - not a single one of them is a redskins fan. Most of them are lifelong Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Giants fans and we usually watch games at sports bars together or someones house. Alot of them are much older than me and i trust their input - not a one of them that ive talked tothinks Campbell will succeed in this offense, which agrees with what the paid professionals have been saying since we brought Zorn here.

As far as me wishing the worst for the team i root for, its quite the opposite. This franchise has been mediocre since Snyder took over and that will never ever change with Campbell at the helm - he is a guy that doesnt make many mistakes, thats it. He's too timid to ever become great. Campbell ensures this team stays mediocre. Going 9-7 or 10-6 and playing in the wild card game once every few years doesnt satisfy me. If it does you, then you should hang out with fans of consistently good teams and you'll realize what youre missing out on - continued success.

I'd rather risk taking a step back in 2009, have a franchise QB, and then build around him for 10-15 years than continue to hover around 8-8 for that same timespan. You can't get ahead in this game without taking a few chances.

I asked before, and I still wonder, can you give examples of where a team went and got the franchise qb, then built the rest of the team? I still think you build the team now, and IF JC doesn't work out, then everything is in place and you get your guy. But if you "get your guy" now, and then dump Zorn and JC as you imagine is going to happen, then you now have 2 qbs that the new coach didn't choose, and a new system. We have been down that road a couple times...

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

BHA, do you think Sanchez will be "Franchise" great, or great because he is the best in this draft?
Another way to phrase it, If Sanchez had taken Carrol's supposed advice and stayed in till next year, would you be advocating wait for him next year, or get the next best one after Stafford?
I think you want a Superstar qb so bad, and you know in your heart JC isn't it, that you are willing to take just about any qb out there and proclaim him the next "Franchise".

My answers to my questions:
Sanchez is not a sure hit franchise player.
If he came out next year he might be the 4th best behind Tebow and others.

Further, he knows that, and knows that this year he can get top 10 money and like a smart business man, he is catching the cash now.

Let's not get carried away. He may or may not be behind Bradford and McCoy but no way is he behind Tebow.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

How many superbowls did he win again? What team did he become a franchise QB for? what team was able to build around him for continued long-term success?

If you want to luck into a "one hit wonder" superbowl appearance and have a career of mediocrity, thats what Jason Campbell may give you. If you want continued success, we need to look elsewhere.

I think the better question, or atleast what I feel like has been said repeatedly. Is how many SB's did the Hogs, and the Coach's system give us. Most of us look at the 80s era as the glory of the Skins, a TEAM that won consistently year in year out, no "franchise" player but rather OL/DL's that were physical and renowned and home grown.

And yes I would take the 80s - early 90s over hunting and pecking changing coaches/qbs/systems every two years when the current golden child is no longer so golden.

New England isn't having this decade due to Brady, but because of the system-stability- and smart long term patient moves. Same with Pittsburgh. Same with Philly.
Build the TEAM, not grab the current hot babe.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Its not that i feel any of my arguments have been proven wrong and i'm grasping at straws - its just that none of my previous arguments have done anything to sway you and there's no sense repeating the same arguments over and over again. I don't hate Campbell - I just dont think he's a good fit here and i am 100% certain he will be gone after this season at the latest - so why not move him now and get some value for him if we can? I'd rather get something for him now, than nothing for him later.

As to my friends - not a single one of them is a redskins fan. Most of them are lifelong Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Giants fans and we usually watch games at sports bars together or someones house. Alot of them are much older than me and i trust their input - not a one of them that ive talked tothinks Campbell will succeed in this offense, which agrees with what the paid professionals have been saying since we brought Zorn here.

As far as me wishing the worst for the team i root for, its quite the opposite. This franchise has been mediocre since Snyder took over and that will never ever change with Campbell at the helm - he is a guy that doesnt make many mistakes, thats it. He's too timid to ever become great. Campbell ensures this team stays mediocre. Going 9-7 or 10-6 and playing in the wild card game once every few years doesnt satisfy me. If it does you, then you should hang out with fans of consistently good teams and you'll realize what youre missing out on - continued success.

I'd rather risk taking a step back in 2009, have a franchise QB, and then build around him for 10-15 years than continue to hover around 8-8 for that same timespan. You can't get ahead in this game without taking a few chances.

Okay, new question: should the Giants trade multiple first round picks to get up and land Sanchez? Their franchise QB isn't really even as good as Campbell is here right now. Plus, they seem to be a team that has most parts in place, at least talking OL (although they have depth issues).

Where is the threshold for a team to stop trying to improve their QB situation?

I only defer this question to you since you clearly consider yourself the authority on what it takes for a QB to be "great".

[drew54]

Originally Posted by 53Fan

That's EXACTLY how I feel. I would never abandon the Redskins completely, but to say my interest in the coming season would wane, would be putting it mildly. It's hard to pull for an idiot. (D.S.)

I am right there with Matty and 53Fan.

Although I did watch my roomate, who is a Falcons fan, freak out about Matt Ryan, only to eat crow later.

But I feel that after ten years of this stuff, I have about had enough of the roller coaster ride.

[wilsowilso]

I can't recall a Redskins draft that I wanted to be over and done with more than this one.