Brandon Marshall anyone

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by budw38

Great post , I agree 100 % . We need an OL to give our Qb time to throw the ball downfield ! Maybe I trade one of our WR's straight up for BM , but NO way I give them 2010 draft pick for him .

Big Ben was sacked more than any other QB except for Matt Cassell, but he kept plays alive and got the ball downfield. Campbell seems to need perfect pass protection in order to be successful. He either can't anticipate where the rush is coming from, or he can't evade defenders long enough to make a positive play, or both. But I think he'll be better this year whether or not the O line is much improved.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I would say that to an extent, Steelers fans are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to their own players than Redskins fans are. I would say, if Campbell's career mirrored Roethlisberger's we'd be just as high on him as the Steelers are on Big Ben, even though, there's not a huge difference between the two.

If Campbell had won two super bowls in the last four years doing not a damn thing different than he has done so, he'd be a "playmaker" too. He'd also still have a long way to develop.

And for Steelers' fans sake, I hope/expect that Ben's going to improve in the future. I don't know how many more years he can plan on having the best defense in football.

There's not a huge difference between Campbell and Big Ben?!?!?! Was there a 2 for 1 sale on crack in your neighborhood? The final drive of the Super Bowl is the difference between the two. When has Campbell done anything like that? Ben flat out wins games for his team and is on his way to the HOF. Campbell is still a work in progress and could be a back-up the rest of his career if he doesn't break out in a big way this year.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Well the reason Big Ben is a playmaker is because he was thrown in the fire and was allowed to play from day one. Ben has 72 career starts, so I would call him a veteran, as such he is expected to carry his team if necessary, although he has had an elite defense along the way. Unfortunately, in our team, Gibbs didn't trust Campbell as a rookie and he didn't get the same experience as Ben. Campbell has half the experience (36 starts) than Big Ben, and honestly I don't think anyone has expected him to carry the team on his back or win games. Yes, Campbell played shitty when his offensive line and running game disintegrated, but also the Redskins defense last year was not up to the level of Pittsburgh. I don't think anyone is that shallow to just say that the Redskins did not well just b/c Campbell got sacked a lot.

Furthermore, why are you guys dogging the Steelers WR group? You mean to tell me that Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, and Santonio Holmes are not good enough to be considered part of the reason of the Steelers' success over the past couple of seasons?? I mean the Steelers have had a top 5/top 10 defense for a while, and a pretty strong running game (two back system for most of the time), but you guys make it sound like their wideouts were just some guys they got off the street or something.

Are you saying Ben wasn't really good until his 72nd start? Or even 50th start? How did he play in his first 36 games vs. Campbell? He was 13-0 as a rookie (and offensive rookie player of the year and SB winner the following year), and I don't care how you parse the stats to make the argument that Campbell is just as good. No one in their right mind can watch the two play and think they're on par with each other. For now, Ben is head and shoulders better. I like Campbell and hope he has a break-out season, but his play has been mediocre at best up to this point.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Big Ben was sacked more than any other QB except for Matt Cassell, but he kept plays alive and got the ball downfield. Campbell seems to need perfect pass protection in order to be successful. He either can't anticipate where the rush is coming from, or he can't evade defenders long enough to make a positive play, or both. But I think he'll be better this year whether or not the O line is much improved.

I don't disagree with your statement , I was not comparing JC & Ben . Big Ben has a knack for making big plays when he is under great pressure , lets just see what JC can deliver with more time and another year in Zorn's WC offense . IF JC plays great , we might have our Qb for years to come , if he bombs ,,,, Rivers might be coming to DC in 2010.

[ethat001]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Here's all the wide receivers drafted within the top three picks in the last 20 years:

1. Keyshawn Johnson
2. Charles Rogers
3. Andre Johnson
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Braylon Edwards
6. Calvin Johnson

11 pro bowls between these guys, with only one bust. I'd say the conversion rate on elite-level college wide receivers has been pretty good. After the first three picks though, those 30 million signing bonuses, then busts mix in pretty evenly with successful players.

GTripp -- nice work on that list. I'd salivate over having one of those. I guess if you have an elite WR you'd be willing to draft top 3 & give up a $30 million bonus, they are probably worth it.

I still think with the typical draft bust percentages -- that unless your front office is better than the rest of the league at spotting top talent -- it makes more sense to get *young* free agents like Marshall. You may pay more, but you're much more likely to get a winner.

I still wouldn't just give away our draft, but I value proven *young* FA far more than risky & costly draft picks.

[SBXVII]

Umm. Can we all keep one thing in mind when comparing JC to others......Gibbs didn't let him play right out of the box. So numbers don't mean anything. Also Big Ben has been in the same offense for his whole career JC has not. I'm not trying to make a crutch for JC, heck I was hoping we would have picked up Sanchez but I do understand the fact that he has had to learn while playing and trying to get comfortable with the offenses he's been in. Hopefully this yr he learns more and is more comfortable and has a better 2min drill.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Here's all the wide receivers drafted within the top three picks in the last 20 years:

1. Keyshawn Johnson
2. Charles Rogers
3. Andre Johnson
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Braylon Edwards
6. Calvin Johnson

11 pro bowls between these guys, with only one bust. I'd say the conversion rate on elite-level college wide receivers has been pretty good. After the first three picks though, those 30 million signing bonuses, then busts mix in pretty evenly with successful players.

Why don't people tout Andre Johnson more? He doesn't get in trouble and he doesn't have a huge mouth, so the media doesn't pay attention to him. They guy is a freak and as good as any offensive player in the NFL, IMO.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

There's not a huge difference between Campbell and Big Ben?!?!?! Was there a 2 for 1 sale on crack in your neighborhood? The final drive of the Super Bowl is the difference between the two. When has Campbell done anything like that? Ben flat out wins games for his team and is on his way to the HOF. Campbell is still a work in progress and could be a back-up the rest of his career if he doesn't break out in a big way this year.

Wait, when did Campbell mess up the final drive of the super bowl? Don't compare apples to oranges.

Relax, it's just one drive, and Campbell has plenty of time to match it. Who knows, maybe this is the year? Maybe not. Roethlisberger is this off-seasons' hot thing, but the next time he has a 4 INT day, his game winning drive in the Super Bowl last year won't be worth much, and he'll have to answer to his critics, just like Campbell will.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Are you saying Ben wasn't really good until his 72nd start? Or even 50th start? How did he play in his first 36 games vs. Campbell? He was 13-0 as a rookie (and offensive rookie player of the year and SB winner the following year), and I don't care how you parse the stats to make the argument that Campbell is just as good. No one in their right mind can watch the two play and think they're on par with each other. For now, Ben is head and shoulders better. I like Campbell and hope he has a break-out season, but his play has been mediocre at best up to this point.

Dude, you are way off. My statements were a reaction to your following comment:

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Exactly. Ben is a playmaker and the Steeler franchise is just solid from top to bottom. They could take our receivers and win the Super Bowl with them. Ben got sacked a ton, but no one used that as an excuse for poor QB play. He kept plays alive with his feet, shed tackles and got the ball downfield.

Nowhere in my response did I say that Jason Campbell is better than Big Ben. To me your comment that "no one used that [being sacked] as an excuse for poor QB play" sounded as you were saying that unlike Campbell, Ben got sacked a lot and still got his team to the playoffs. It sounded as though you were comparing Campbell to Ben. My response was simply saying that you cannot compare the two at this point, since Ben has more experience (twice as many starts as JC) and was thrown into the starting role since his rookie year (unlike JC).

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

There's not a huge difference between Campbell and Big Ben?!?!?! Was there a 2 for 1 sale on crack in your neighborhood? The final drive of the Super Bowl is the difference between the two. When has Campbell done anything like that? Ben flat out wins games for his team and is on his way to the HOF. Campbell is still a work in progress and could be a back-up the rest of his career if he doesn't break out in a big way this year.

I don't necessarily agree that there is not much of a huge difference between JC and Big Ben, however this statement once again leads me to believe that you are comparing Ben to Campbell. Let's look at their differences: 72 starts vs. 36 starts; being the starting QB from rookie year vs. sitting on the bench; having Plaxico Burress/Hines Ward/Santonio Holmes vs. having just Santana Moss; having an elite defense that can win a game vs. having a bend but don't break defense. Ben has had many advantages and that makes him better than Campbell, it is not fair to compare them.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Are you saying Ben wasn't really good until his 72nd start? Or even 50th start? How did he play in his first 36 games vs. Campbell? He was 13-0 as a rookie (and offensive rookie player of the year and SB winner the following year), and I don't care how you parse the stats to make the argument that Campbell is just as good. No one in their right mind can watch the two play and think they're on par with each other. For now, Ben is head and shoulders better. I like Campbell and hope he has a break-out season, but his play has been mediocre at best up to this point.

Thing is, Ben may never win another SB the rest of his career, and he still might end up as a legitimate, sure-fire hall of famer. However, suggesting he's already to the point where he transcends the other players on the field to win games is a gross exaggeration.

Let's face it, for the first two years of Roethlisberger's career, he wore unbelievably large training wheels. He was very, very good in the plays that he was asked to run those years, but he was rarely asked to carry the team. Maybe a drive here and there, but he wasn't the leader of the 2004-2005 Steelers, he was just a key component in their machine who was less mistake prone than Tommy Maddox.

Then, when they took the training wheels off, he kind of floundered like any young quarterback asked to lead. He sandwiched a pro bowl season in between two below average seasons. I don't know what that means. QB rating had him over 100+ in 2007, but his TD total was inflated by a lack of a goal line running game. He had his best season as a pro in 2007, but it wasn't some historic, pro-bowl year. It was merely the best he's done.

Look, the guy is an 8.1 Y/A playoff quarterback with an 87 rating. Those are excellent numbers. More importantly, his playoff performance is NOT out of line with his regular season performance. It's not like he goes to a totally different level in the playoffs. He's always been good. Of course, these very good numbers are only a small step above where Campbell is now. Given a small increase in his offensive environment, Campbell's is arguably already at this level.

[skinsfan69]

[quote=GTripp0012;563942]Thing is, Ben may never win another SB the rest of his career, and he still might end up as a legitimate, sure-fire hall of famer. However, suggesting he's already to the point where he transcends the other players on the field to win games is a gross exaggeration.

Let's face it, for the first two years of Roethlisberger's career, he wore unbelievably large training wheels. He was very, very good in the plays that he was asked to run those years, but he was rarely asked to carry the team. Maybe a drive here and there, but he wasn't the leader of the 2004-2005 Steelers, he was just a key component in their machine who was less mistake prone than Tommy Maddox.

Then, when they took the training wheels off, he kind of floundered like any young quarterback asked to lead. He sandwiched a pro bowl season in between two below average seasons. I don't know what that means. QB rating had him over 100+ in 2007, but his TD total was inflated by a lack of a goal line running game. He had his best season as a pro in 2007, but it wasn't some historic, pro-bowl year. It was merely the best he's done.

Look, the guy is an 8.1 Y/A playoff quarterback with an 87 rating. Those are excellent numbers. More importantly, his playoff performance is NOT out of line with his regular season performance. It's not like he goes to a totally different level in the playoffs. He's always been good. Of course, these very good numbers are only a small step above where Campbell is now. Given a small increase in his offensive environment, Campbell's is arguably already at this level.[/quote]

As I've mentioned before some QB's you just can't judge them by rating, comp. % and so on. Ben is one of those guys. For the most part he gets the job done when it matters. It may not look pretty but he makes enough plays for Pittsburgh's offense. I don't think he's an upper tier NFL Qb but right now he doesn't have to be. At this point he's a better QB than JC.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

As I've mentioned before some QB's you just can't judge them by rating, comp. % and so on. Ben is one of those guys. For the most part he gets the job done when it matters. It may not look pretty but he makes enough plays for Pittsburgh's offense. I don't think he's an upper tier NFL Qb but right now he doesn't have to be. At this point he's a better QB than JC.

Ben's had a pretty impressive early career. I wasn't really arguing that he's not better than Campbell, because the question wasn't even posed. I suggested that the gap between them is smaller than one would be led to believe by what is read and spoken about the two of them. If the price on Ben is 100 million, and the price on Campbell is 60 million, I'd take JC at the reduced price.

The only thing is, that Ben is coming off the least productive season of his career, statistically. I realize he "got it done" and I also don't really care. I saw him in the playoffs, and he was more like his old self than he looked to be in the regular season. With the Ben who showed up in the playoffs, you can win a whole bunch of games with a mediocre defense. With the Ben who played the 2008 regular season behind an inconsistent OL and WR targets, having the No. 1 (or close to No. 1) defense was a downright necessity to win more games than they lost.

We can wax poetic about the 3-4 games that Ben led drives to win in the final minutes last year, but if he had the 2008 Redskins defense instead of the Steelers defense--and the Redskins weren't a chopped liver defensive team--he's not in any of those games to win it at the end. He's got a 7-9 non playoff team instead of an eventual super bowl champion. And to put that in perspective, that would have been the second time in Big Ben's career that he would have failed to go .500.

The defense makes a huge difference in how he is perceived. And in 2008, second half specifically, our defense was a detriment to how Campbell was perceived. The phrases "Jason Campbell" and "poor second half" have appeared all over the internet, but Campbell was one of two guys on the offense who executed a higher percentage of the time in the second half of the year than in the first half. He just got no help.

I'm unconvinced that Ben will have a stronger career than Campbell, although if JC doesn't start having some 7.5-8.0 YPA seasons, he's never going to catch Big Ben, in my mind.