Arizona's New Immigration Law

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Well, according to the naysayers they already get the benefits just but without paying taxes, so it could possibly be a wash.

They do get some by just living here. Kids attend school, use hospitals, and a few other things. If legal then they could access other things like unemployment, SS, etc...

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by firstdown

They do get some by just living here. Kids attend school, use hospitals, and a few other things. If legal then they could access other things like unemployment, SS, etc...

and they would pay taxes, not be crowding the jails due to immigration policy, etc.... They still would be deported for committing crimes, but just living here wouldn't make a person an immediate criminal.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by dblanch66

Well I live here in Phoenix and the illegal immigrant issue is a big problem. They are receiving benefits, food stamps and getting health coverage. I feel torn, as do many here in AZ, about this law. On one hand, I am all for getting control of the problem but I can also see the other side. Some law enforcement will certainly abuse this.

The way I see it, this is all that matters. I don't live in AZ so I really couldn't care less about their laws. If the people of AZ support it (which I guess is unclear right now, other than the bill becoming a law), then the opinions of people from other states don't mean jack IMO.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

The way I see it, this is all that matters. I don't live in AZ so I really couldn't care less about their laws. If the people of AZ support it (which I guess is unclear right now, other than the bill becoming a law), then the opinions of people from other states don't mean jack IMO.

Well said and how have you been doing?

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

and they would pay taxes, not be crowding the jails due to immigration policy, etc.... They still would be deported for committing crimes, but just living here wouldn't make a person an immediate criminal.

they're criminals as soon as they, illegally, cross the border.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by jsarno

wow, I would say I am surprised at people that are against this law, but I'm not. This is a quality law that should greatly help with the BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS we end up spending on illegal aliens.

you shouldn't be, america is a place which is fool of fools. (note last pres. election as proof )

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

they're criminals as soon as they, illegally, cross the border.

Um, if you read what I was saying, that was my point. People who are hardworking, trying to make it work for their families and would come over legally if we weren't such an arrogant society, are turned into criminals because we try to prevent their culture from overrunning ours. Probably tens of thousands who are here illegally could be productive members of our society, pay taxes, not overcrowd the jails, and in turn send money to their families which could help Mexican society as well. Instead they earn their money on the sly, they don't pay full taxes, they still use our services, they fall into other lawbreaking cultures since they are, as you said, already criminalized. It really is a tragedy.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by joethiesmanfan

What if I told them to go back to Macedonia, and stop taking away jobs that Amercians can't get and need.

They ARE Americans

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by mredskins

I agree as well. The majority are hard workers and do jobs us natural born Americans don't want. More people equals more jobs.

Only by the means of increased supply for goods and services. And even then that doesn't mean that the jobs will be created, just the processes can become more efficient or run faster.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Um, if you read what I was saying, that was my point. People who are hardworking, trying to make it work for their families and would come over legally if we weren't such an arrogant society, are turned into criminals because we try to prevent their culture from overrunning ours. Probably tens of thousands who are here illegally could be productive members of our society, pay taxes, not overcrowd the jails, and in turn send money to their families which could help Mexican society as well. Instead they earn their money on the sly, they don't pay full taxes, they still use our services, they fall into other lawbreaking cultures since they are, as you said, already criminalized. It really is a tragedy.

So we don't let people just cross the border and become citizens because we're arrogant?

We're talking culture, yet referring to them all as Mexicans? LOL

They're not cut out for a lot of taxable jobs and some people specifically hire illegals to circumvent wage and benefit requirements. And if we just allowed them, they wouldn't overcrowd the jails, but because they're already criminalized by entering the country, they fall into other lawbreaking "cultures?" Brother, we have plenty of our own in jail, being a citizen doesn't change that.

I'm not sure that any of what you said there makes sense. You tell me how we're logistically supposed to adopt the rushes of people that would enter our soil if we had an open border to citizenship. You're going to have cultural, language, etc barriers that have hampered people who've come here the right way as it is. It just doesn't make sense.

We have cities in the U.S. that've shown that the "grass is greener" approach just doesn't work when it comes to migration. One being Charlotte, NC; well-qualified, formally educated, English speaking citizens have been moving there for the past 5 years or so in droves only to find out that all of the magazine articles about it being a great place to live aren't exactly true due to the high unemployment. Throw in tens to hundreds of thousands of people pouring in frequently over the border and tell me what jobs are going to be created out of thin air. Their American dream will meet reality quicker than a sack vs the Redskins last year.

To even fathom starting the process to allowing this you're talking a huge government expansion to accommodate the increased load in applications, follow-up paperwork, etc. Getting them into the systems that the rest of us are in, everything from Social Security to public schooling. I cannot think of many worse things that we could do.

[Rainy Parade]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

They're not cut out for a lot of taxable jobs.

you probably didn't intend it this way, but this struck me as a bit racist.
taxable jobs include trashmen, mcdonalds fry guy, painter, teacher, lawyer, doctor, secretary, etc etc...

doesn't seem right that a certain group/class/nationality isn't cut out to do certain work. now, if you know NO english and dont have a high school or college degree, then of course your options are limited. i assume that was your angle....

[Rainy Parade]

btw, saw this article and thought you all might find it interesting:


Email reveals Arizona law was designed to maximize harassment
By Gabriel Winant

I was once privy to a conversation between a couple of middle-aged lefties, one white, one black. The white guy was remembering his early hippie days, and said, "You know, I think what first taught me to be afraid of the cops was smoking pot. That's when I lost my childhood innocence about the power of the state." The black woman looked at him, rolled her eyes, and said, "That's because you’re white -- that's why it took you so long."

It's a funny story, but it contains a point that can't be made often enough right now: the arguments coming from conservatives in defense of Arizona's controversial new immigration law tend to claim that it only empowers police officers to demand documentation after "lawful contact," and hence doesn’t constitute racial profiling or harassment. (See this coming from Ramesh Ponnuru, of the National Review, here.) This idea reveals thoroughgoing ignorance about what profiling is, and how it works.

When conservatives like Ponnuru think of racial profiling, they seem to think of a straw man. The image is something like an evil officer out of the Jim Crow South, full of "prejudice" (itself a fairly silly and inaccurate way to describe racism), enacting his hatred by stopping black people or Latinos arbitrarily. Although it is arbitrary and unfair in terms of who gets targeted, racial profiling also fits into a set of structures guiding police behavior. If cops want to stop someone, they'll be able to cite some legitimate-sounding suspicion, whether it is actually legitimate or not. Profiling doesn't need to feel like profiling to the police, and they don't need to be secret Klansmen to enforce racial discrimination. It shows up way before you get to that point, among ordinary officers who probably just think they're doing their duty.

Ta-Nehisi Coates, for example, tells a story about being stopped in Chelsea on the way back from an NPR interview, on suspicion that he was a Latino male who had robbed someone; he also notes that discriminatory policing can end up much, much worse than it did for him that day. This is also the basic point made by Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, in his announcement that he wouldn’t enforce the Arizona law. Said Dupnik, "If I tell my people to go out and look for A, B, and C, they're going to do it. They'll find some flimsy excuse like a tail light that's not working as a basis for a stop, which is a bunch of baloney."

Apparently in response to criticism from out of state, the Arizona legislature has amended the law to change "lawful contact" to "lawful stop, detention or arrest." Although a "lawful stop" really doesn't seem like it would have excluded, say, Coates in Chelsea, that's not the worst of it. The amendment also requires officers responding to city ordinance violations to inquire about immigration status, again if they have reasonable suspicion.

The Center for American Progress recently obtained an email sent by Kris Kobach, a lawyer for the Immigration Reform Law Institute, the group which claims it drafted the bill, to Arizona state Sen. Russell Pearce, who was its sponsor. The email was sent as the legislature prepared the amendment to the law that was signed by Gov. Jan Brewer last Friday. Kobach wrote,

When we drop out "lawful contact" and replace it with "a stop, detention, or rest, in the enforcement a violation of any title or section of the Arizona code" we need to add "or any county or municipal ordinance." This will allow police to use violations of property codes (ie, cars on blocks in the yard) or rental codes (too many occupants of a rental accommodation) to initiate queries as well.

I have not received anything from the people on the phone this afternoon. Please ensure that they make this addition as well. Thanks!

I have no real complaint with lawyers in Washington writing laws for state legislators. Both sides do that kind of thing, and there's nothing inherently wrong with turning to out-of-state experts. But what Kobach dictated to Pearce here was a recommendation to broaden the scope of police power to maximize the probability of racial profiling. Coates' point, and Dupnik's, that police can find a reason to stop someone when they want to stop someone, probably held true for Arizona before the bill's new amendment. It certainly still does after. The crucial thing that Kobach revealed in this email is that questioning people with brown skin under essentially trumped-up pretexts isn't just a bug in the law. The legislation doesn't accidentally risk the possibility of a campaign of harassment. It builds it in. It's what it was written to do.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Um, if you read what I was saying, that was my point. People who are hardworking, trying to make it work for their families and would come over legally if we weren't such an arrogant society, are turned into criminals because we try to prevent their culture from overrunning ours. Probably tens of thousands who are here illegally could be productive members of our society, pay taxes, not overcrowd the jails, and in turn send money to their families which could help Mexican society as well. Instead they earn their money on the sly, they don't pay full taxes, they still use our services, they fall into other lawbreaking cultures since they are, as you said, already criminalized. It really is a tragedy.

There we go...we're the bad people because we don't welcome lawbreakers.

They MAY be nice people who work hard, but the first act they do on our soil is BREAKING THE LAW and disrespecting our nation.

I don't understand how people can't grasp this.

As for them being productive...they're counterproductive to our nation's prosperity when they steal welfare, aid, housing and even medical treatment they're not entitled to. When I was in the E.R. last month (with insurance I pay for) to get my gushing wound sewn up, across the hall were some people cursing in English and mixing in loud Spanish. They were complaining about having to wait to get their stomach aches looked at. The doctor stitching me up said something I really appreciated, she said to me "You have a real, legitimate emergency, we're going to take care of you first. Some people come in here and demand to be taken care of right away for minor things, and they're not even supposed to be here."

It was refreshing to hear but makes the point even more...whether they are nice people and hard workers or not, they're here draining our society and economy while they're breaking the law.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by Buster

There we go...we're the bad people because we don't welcome lawbreakers.

They MAY be nice people who work hard, but the first act they do on our soil is BREAKING THE LAW and disrespecting our nation.

I don't understand how people can't grasp this.

As for them being productive...they're counterproductive to our nation's prosperity when they steal welfare, aid, housing and even medical treatment they're not entitled to. When I was in the E.R. last month (with insurance I pay for) to get my gushing wound sewn up, across the hall were some people cursing in English and mixing in loud Spanish. They were complaining about having to wait to get their stomach aches looked at. The doctor stitching me up said something I really appreciated, she said to me "You have a real, legitimate emergency, we're going to take care of you first. Some people come in here and demand to be taken care of right away for minor things, and they're not even supposed to be here."

It was refreshing to hear but makes the point even more...whether they are nice people and hard workers or not, they're here draining our society and economy while they're breaking the law.

First of all, ER visits are supposed to be handled in order of severity, so you should've been seen first.

Second, it's flat out racist that they were assumed to be illegal simply because they spoke Spanish.

[firstdown]

Funny how the news has ignored the violence at some of these protest. Instead they say the Tea Party rallies are full of hate and violence.

YouTube - Arizona immigration protest turns violent riot

I could not find any video of the buildings damaged this weekend.