DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Hog1

They could.....try
AND you can rest assured, if "they" were a big enough dog, they would. And maybe they are. They are good at that sort of thing........

You don't have to be top dog to do damage....No men are more dangerous than those who have nothing to lose.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

-Sun Tzu

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by saden1

You don't have to be top dog to do damage....No men are more dangerous than those who have nothing to lose.

...supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
I'm good with that, what's your plan?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Hog1

...supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
I'm good with that, what's your plan?

I'd start with opening a genuine dialog with people and stop supporting tyrannical/dictatorial regimes. Everyone already knows about the stick in my hand, I just need to show them I got a carrot in the other hand too.

First thing is first though, I got to get the keys to this country. Vote for me!

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by saden1

I'd start with opening a genuine dialog with people and stop supporting tyrannical/dictatorial regimes. Everyone already knows about my stick in my hand, I just need to show them I got a carrot in the other hand too.

First thing is first though, I got to get the keys to this country. Vote for me!

Hmmmm..........Lord Saden1???

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Hmmmm..........Lord Saden1???

Come on, think big, think First Emperor of the United States of America!

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by saden1

Come on, think big, think First Emperor of the United States of America!

You must have Obama and Nancy Pelosi working with you in the shadows.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

You don't have to be top dog to do damage....No men are more dangerous than those who have nothing to lose.

And men who believe they gain heaven by violent acts are even more dangerous than those with nothing to lose.

Great Sun Tzu quote BTW. Problem with the Sun Tzu view in the case of battling fundamentalist Islam is that you cannot break this enemy's "resistance" because it consists of a religious obligation to either kill or subjugate all non-Muslims.

To be clear, I am not stating that all Muslims believe this. There are many peaceful Muslims who reject the fundamentalist ideology just as many mainline Christians reject radical Christian beliefs (burning Qurans, murdering abortion doctors, protesting at soldiers funerals, etc.). However, the problem worldwide is that there's a significant percentage of Muslims who follow the fundamentalist ideology.

The burning of the Quran is wrong and shouldn't be done, it's disrespectful to all Muslims. The same as buring Bibles is disrespectful to Christians. This display will accomplish nothing positive. However, as U.S. citizens (of all faiths) we have to either support the 1st Ammendment or not, no matter how deplorable the speech may be. I'm sickened by the thought of a picture of a crucifix in a bottle of urine being on display as art (and the NEA paying for it), I'm disgusted and angered at a U.S. flag being burned, I'm disgusted and angered if a Bible was burned. But I won't threaten, or attempt murder on those who do such things. If any violence comes to the DWOC people, it needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law as a hate crime.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

And men who believe they gain heaven by violent acts are even more dangerous than those with nothing to lose.

Great Sun Tzu quote BTW. Problem with the Sun Tzu view in the case of battling fundamentalist Islam is that you cannot break this enemy's "resistance" because it consists of a religious obligation to either kill or subjugate all non-Muslims.

To be clear, I am not stating that all Muslims believe this. There are many peaceful Muslims who reject the fundamentalist ideology just as many mainline Christians reject radical Christian beliefs (burning Qurans, murdering abortion doctors, protesting at soldiers funerals, etc.). However, the problem worldwide is that there's a significant percentage of Muslims who follow the fundamentalist ideology.

The burning of the Quran is wrong and shouldn't be done, it's disrespectful to all Muslims. The same as buring Bibles is disrespectful to Christians. This display will accomplish nothing positive. However, as U.S. citizens (of all faiths) we have to either support the 1st Ammendment or not, no matter how deplorable the speech may be. I'm sickened by the thought of a picture of a crucifix in a bottle of urine being on display as art (and the NEA paying for it), I'm disgusted and angered at a U.S. flag being burned, I'm disgusted and angered if a Bible was burned. But I won't threaten, or attempt murder on those who do such things. If any violence comes to the DWOC people, it needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law as a hate crime.

Yes, men who think they're heaven bound if they blow themselves up in the name of Islam are the most dangerous. The question is whether there is anything you can do to deter such thought without military action?


Quantify significant percentage of Muslims and many mainline Christians.

You will see Muslims burn the American flag in displeasure but you will never ever see them burn the Bible.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by saden1

You will see Muslims burn the American flag in displeasure but you will never ever see them burn the Bible.

Instead they just cheered when the twin towers fell. They won't burn the bible because the bible is not their enemy / infidels.
I personally think burning the books are dumb. Think about it, what is the highest sold book of all time...the bible. If you burn say 100,000 of them, guess what, someone will make more. Same can be said for the Koran. Burn them, and they will make more. So there is no real point. How about redirect that anger and decide to do something about the mosque at ground zero. All they have to do is declare it a national monument, or somewhere of historical significance, and poof, they can't build there. (they CAN do this since landing gear from the plane landed on that spot.)
That being said...while I think burning the books are dumb, I say have at it. If that's what they want to do, so be it. Of course, I do believe for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...so I wouldn't want to be those people. At least someone is standing up and trying to do SOMETHING about the fact that America keeps taking it in the ass from radical islamic culture. Just wish they could pick a better way.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Instead they just cheered when the twin towers fell. They won't burn the bible because the bible is not their enemy / infidels.
I personally think burning the books are dumb. Think about it, what is the highest sold book of all time...the bible. If you burn say 100,000 of them, guess what, someone will make more. Same can be said for the Koran. Burn them, and they will make more. So there is no real point. How about redirect that anger and decide to do something about the mosque at ground zero. All they have to do is declare it a national monument, or somewhere of historical significance, and poof, they can't build there. (they CAN do this since landing gear from the plane landed on that spot.)
That being said...while I think burning the books are dumb, I say have at it. If that's what they want to do, so be it. Of course, I do believe for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...so I wouldn't want to be those people. At least someone is standing up and trying to do SOMETHING about the fact that America keeps taking it in the ass from radical islamic culture. Just wish they could pick a better way.

Nah, they believe it is a sacred yet outdated text that warrants respect.

You've been listening to Newt Gingrich haven't you? Good luck making it a National Battlefield Memorial with so many people with vested interest in the land. Better have some serious cash if you want that land. I love it when small government proponents become big government advocates.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by saden1

Nah, they believe it is a sacred yet outdated text that warrants respect.

You've been listening to Newt Gingrich haven't you? Good luck making it a National Battlefield Memorial with so many people with vested interest in the land. Better have some serious cash if you want that land. I love it when small government proponents become big government advocates.

No I haven't. Just pointing out their anger could be put to better use.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

Yes, men who think they're heaven bound if they blow themselves up in the name of Islam are the most dangerous. The question is whether there is anything you can do to deter such thought without military action?


Quantify significant percentage of Muslims and many mainline Christians.

You will see Muslims burn the American flag in displeasure but you will never ever see them burn the Bible.

Mainline Christians - based on numbers of overall Christians vs. those who commit the type of acts mentioned and giving an overly high estimate for those who support those acts. 90% + of Mainline Christians do not support the acts mentioned.

Fundamentalist Muslims - taking into account opinion polls outside the U.S. of percentages that believe killing Americans is justified, elections in Muslim countries where there is a fundamentalist vs. moderate Muslim candidate an underestimate would be 35-40%. Not saying this is the percentage that would become jihadists, saying this is the percentage that hold the belief system, agree with sharia law, etc.

Does burning buildings and Christian churches with Bibles inside count? How about just murdering Christians?

INDONESIA West Java, thousands of Islamic extremists attack a Christian center - Asia News

The American Spectator : Thrown to the Lions

The wave of anti-Christian violence | Simon Tisdall | Comment is free | The Guardian

YouTube - Pakistan: blasphemy laws spur violence...

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Mainline Christians - based on numbers of overall Christians vs. those who commit the type of acts mentioned and giving an overly high estimate for those who support those acts. 90% + of Mainline Christians do not support the acts mentioned.

Fundamentalist Muslims - taking into account opinion polls outside the U.S. of percentages that believe killing Americans is justified, elections in Muslim countries where there is a fundamentalist vs. moderate Muslim candidate an underestimate would be 35-40%. Not saying this is the percentage that would become jihadists, saying this is the percentage that hold the belief system, agree with sharia law, etc.

Does burning buildings and Christian churches with Bibles inside count? How about just murdering Christians?

INDONESIA West Java, thousands of Islamic extremists attack a Christian center - Asia News

The American Spectator : Thrown to the Lions

The wave of anti-Christian violence | Simon Tisdall | Comment is free | The Guardian

YouTube - Pakistan: blasphemy laws spur violence against Christians

I get the mistreatment of christians but what I fail to understand is what you base 35 to 40 percent figure on. I would be shocked if you can find a poll that supports your claim that that many support the killing of americans.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

I get the mistreatment of christians but what I fail to understand is what you base 35 to 40 percent figure on. I would be shocked if you can find a poll that supports your claim that that many support the killing of americans.

Keep in mind I said the 35-40% was NOT the percentage that would actually become jihadists, but that support Fundamentalist Islam (sharia, etc).

This Pew poll towards the bottom has a section with % that support or justify suicide bombing.

Obama More Popular Abroad than at Home, Global Image of U.S. Continues to Benefit - Pew Research Center

This report from U of MD (Testudo Rules) is pretty interesting in the support for violent acts against civilians is fairly low (however estimating 5% of 1.2B Muslims worldwide is 60M, that's a large amount of potential jihadists), but what is concerning is the percentage that would impose strict sharia law. The Brookings Institute also had a hand in this, so it's not from Fox or Heritage

Printable Version

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Keep in mind I said the 35-40% was NOT the percentage that would actually become jihadists, but that support Fundamentalist Islam (sharia, etc).

This Pew poll towards the bottom has a section with % that support or justify suicide bombing.

Obama More Popular Abroad than at Home, Global Image of U.S. Continues to Benefit - Pew Research Center

This report from U of MD (Testudo Rules) is pretty interesting in the support for violent acts against civilians is fairly low (however estimating 5% of 1.2B Muslims worldwide is 60M, that's a large amount of potential jihadists), but what is concerning is the percentage that would impose strict sharia law. The Brookings Institute also had a hand in this, so it's not from Fox or Heritage

Printable Version

I looked through the poll and it seems quite interesting...the summary combines suicide bombing "often justified and somewhat justified" responses but the full report doesn't (there are really eye catching oddities in the responses which they touch on).

If you ask Americans in a broader context outside of Islamic terrorism as to whether suicide is ever justified I am sure you will get some takers. The real issue is whether the killing of civilian is ever "somewhat justifiable" and to this I point to you the views of most Americans on dropping two H-Bombs on Japan or their views on collateral damage... they are necessary evil.

Given the level of mistrust and apprehension of the United States and Israel and hopelessness in the face of their mighty armies you are more likely to see support for suicide bombing in these countries than you would in the west. As for suicide bombing itself it is not a fundamental part of Islam as some would have us believe; it is a nothing more than a desperate act that is justifiable by anyone (see Japanese kamikaze pilots).


Now as to Sharia law, it's a broad subject matter that spans cultures and multiple facets of Islam. There is more to it than you hear on the radio and tv which is too often washed down to make it appear more sinister than it is (picky and choosy while ignoring the similarities to the old testament). Like the biblical scripture the Qur'an is open to interpretation and each culture/society makes its own laws based on what it thinks the holly book tells it (the Turks are very lax while the Saudis are very strict but not as super crazy strict as the Taliban). Just because you find Sharia law appealing it doesn't mean there is something wrong with you and one can equate these people to American Conservative Christians.

Sharia can be divided into five main branches: ibadah (ritual worship), mu'amalat (transactions and contracts), adab (morals and manners), i'tiqadat (beliefs), and 'uqubat (punishments).