Musgrave.

[GoSkins!]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Amen to that! I sort of can understand the youngins basing what they know about Gibbs from what they have seen. I just can't understand why us older fans are bashed in believing in Gibbs when we're doing the same exact thing?

Yeah, I don't think that the young guys can really understand how totally dominate the offenses under Gibbs were. There are guys hate to lose, guys that work hard to make sure they won't, guys who are smart enough to take a hard look at themselves and change when needed... and Gibbs has always been all of those. I can't believe he is a different person now.

[jrocx69]

musgrave was also brought in to help gibbs with zone blitzing defense which i believe made gibbs very cautious with plays and thus had a bigger effect on ramsey's play. musgrave was brought in to help with plays, but not to call them. i believe musgrave was brought in for 2 reasons, help ramsey develope fundamentals, and help both ramsey and gibbs with what modern day D-coordinators are doing with defense (zone blitzing, (3-4)... which gibbs rarely seen in his first stint

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jrocx69

musgrave was also brought in to help gibbs with zone blitzing defense which i believe made gibbs very cautious with plays and thus had a bigger effect on ramsey's play. musgrave was brought in to help with plays, but not to call them. i believe musgrave was brought in for 2 reasons, help ramsey develope fundamentals, and help both ramsey and gibbs with what modern day D-coordinators are doing with defense (zone blitzing, (3-4)... which gibbs rarely seen in his first stint

Good points, and since Musgrave's background is in the west coast offense I'm sure that will benefit Gibbs to see a different perspective in offensive schemes.

[John Hasbrouck]

Ramseyfan you refer to it as additional coaching - I call it coaching up-either way one states it-Ramsey needs it -QB performance will be the KEY to our season

[JWsleep]

As Matty said, Musgrave has a background in the west coast offense, so he's coming from a slightly different direction. I think that's a big reason he's there, as well as his obvious role in developing Ramsey. He's not here, as far as I can tell, to call plays. He brings a different perspective and he's a quality coach. What's the problem? No one thinks Musgrave is going to be the big difference-maker. Either Gibbs will figure it out or he wont. Having clear memories of the dominant Gibbs offenses of the 80's-early 90's, I'm optimistic. But we'll see...

[shallyshal]

agree with those posters about musgraves purpose as a redskin. most young qb's really benefit from having a qb coach to talk to all the time... ramsey will be no different.

as to what went on in jax, perhaps his playcalling was reflective of the personnel and their shortcomings rather than his own.

in the end, bringing on a younger guy who is well versed in the WCO is absolutely a plus for the team. i see no downside..

[diehardskin2982]

Gibbs only had rust this year. did he run the same three plays when he won the superbowl?

[John Hasbrouck]

If Ramsey has that kind of yr. we will be in the SB

[illdefined]

I grew up in Gibbs D.C., and I lived the skins fans' dream. I too thought the man could do no wrong. until Brunell.

he was so sure. when absolutely everybody said otherwise. he bet the season and lost. cost us massive cap, and crucial morale as well. how could he be so wrong? I dunno guys. I can doubt him now.

[skinsguy]

Are you serious? Brunell won the starting job because he outplayed Ramsey in training camp. Gibbs went with who he felt was the better QB...even Ramsey said it himself that he[Ramsey] was not ready to start at the beginning of the season. The Coles situation is what hurt us with the cap...in fact, Brunell renegotiated his contract to free up a bit of cap room for us. What facts do you have of low morale on the team? Maybe among some fans, but nothing that is team wide.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Are you serious? Brunell won the starting job because he outplayed Ramsey in training camp. Gibbs went with who he felt was the better QB...even Ramsey said it himself that he[Ramsey] was not ready to start at the beginning of the season. The Coles situation is what hurt us with the cap...in fact, Brunell renegotiated his contract to free up a bit of cap room for us. What facts do you have of low morale on the team? Maybe among some fans, but nothing that is team wide.

Brunell was the heavy favorite in the pre-season as far as Gibbs was concerned, Brunell did nothing remotly special in the pre-season to say he outplayed Ramsey, 1 big pass to McCants for a TD was all that realistically seperated the 2. Was Ramsey ready? No. But neither was Brunell considering his performance, I was one of the guys saying Ramsey should have started day 1, he was the future and eventually will prove out to be a much better passer than Brunell, he needed the experience, while my belief was Brunell was a playmaker more than a pocket passer which is what Gibbs wants a QB who can stand in the pocket, well we saw what happens to Brunell when asked to stand in the pocket he no longer can run around and create plays as he once did, it turn's out that Ramsey would have been the right move to start.

As for moral, the only thing that kept this team from really unhinging was Gibbs reputation and peoples belief that he would straighten out the offense, which never really happened, but players like Portis, Gardner, and obviouisly Coles had serious issues on how they were used, moral may not be the right word but there was defiently a lot of second guessing.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

Brunell was the heavy favorite in the pre-season as far as Gibbs was concerned, Brunell did nothing remotly special in the pre-season to say he outplayed Ramsey, 1 big pass to McCants for a TD was all that realistically seperated the 2. Was Ramsey ready? No. But neither was Brunell considering his performance, I was one of the guys saying Ramsey should have started day 1, he was the future and eventually will prove out to be a much better passer than Brunell, he needed the experience, while my belief was Brunell was a playmaker more than a pocket passer which is what Gibbs wants a QB who can stand in the pocket, well we saw what happens to Brunell when asked to stand in the pocket he no longer can run around and create plays as he once did, it turn's out that Ramsey would have been the right move to start.

As for moral, the only thing that kept this team from really unhinging was Gibbs reputation and peoples belief that he would straighten out the offense, which never really happened, but players like Portis, Gardner, and obviouisly Coles had serious issues on how they were used, moral may not be the right word but there was defiently a lot of second guessing.

Ramsey was not ready to go in from day one. He admitted that himself. Have you forgotten his performance from the earlier games of the season? He was horrible! As far as Joe Gibbs wanting QBs who are strictly pocket passers and not "playmakers"...well first of all, all coaches would like for their QB to be a passer first..playmaker second! Even in Atlanta, Mora wanted Vick to focus more on passing than running...we saw evidence of that this year. Secondly, you might be too young to remember this, but Joe Thesimann returned punts for the Washington Redskins in his first two years with the team. Obviously, that means that Theismann was a threat with his legs as well as his arm. With that said, Brunell was being compared to Theismann at the beginning of the season. We all know the success we had with Joe Theismann in the early 1980's. So, if Brunell seemed to be the favorite...there are plenty of good reasons for that...and I don't care what anyone may say now, nobody even romotely felt Brunell was going to be the bust like he was this season.

Lastly, the offense had improved. I realize you're just measuring the offense by points scored...naturally that would be the easiest thing to do. But considering that our time of possession increased, and we had put ourselves in scoring position quite often...the only thing that really didn't improve was red zone scoring. But, overall, the offense improved quite a bit from it's earlier attempts in the season -- Even with a make shift offensive line. Yes, Ramsey was one of the biggest reasons....but only after he was able to watch the system from the bench and the classroom study, that he was able to figure out the theories behind the system and to understand it. It paid off for Ramsey once he got on the field. He still has a long ways to go, of course, but his hard work has gotten him the starting nod for 2005, and Joe Gibbs' respect and support.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Ramsey was not ready to go in from day one. He admitted that himself. Have you forgotten his performance from the earlier games of the season? He was horrible! As far as Joe Gibbs wanting QBs who are strictly pocket passers and not "playmakers"...well first of all,

Secondly, you might be too young to remember this, but Joe Thesimann returned punts for the Washington Redskins in his first two years with the team. Obviously, that means that Theismann was a threat with his legs as well as his arm. With that said, Brunell was being compared to Theismann at the beginning of the season. We all know the success we had with Joe Theismann in the early 1980's. So, if Brunell seemed to be the favorite...there are plenty of good reasons for that...and I don't care what anyone may say now, nobody even romotely felt Brunell was going to be the bust like he was this season.

Lastly, the offense had improved. I realize you're just measuring the offense by points scored...naturally that would be the easiest thing to do. But considering that our time of possession increased, and we had put ourselves in scoring position quite often...the only thing that really didn't improve was red zone scoring. But, overall, the offense improved quite a bit from it's earlier attempts in the season -- Even with a make shift offensive line. Yes, Ramsey was one of the biggest reasons....but only after he was able to watch the system from the bench and the classroom study, that he was able to figure out the theories behind the system and to understand it. It paid off for Ramsey once he got on the field. He still has a long ways to go, of course, but his hard work has gotten him the starting nod for 2005, and Joe Gibbs' respect and support.

Sorry son, but knowbody was comparing Brunell to Theisman at the beginning of the year except maybe you, Why anyone would compare a 34 year old Brunell to a 24 year old Theisman I have no idea. A lot of us didn't want him because we felt his legs are gone and he's not a prototypical Gibbs QB, and a lot of us were right.

I understand that Ramsey has said he wasent fully prepaired to start but that's not the point, the point is neither was Brunell! So all thing's being equal we should have went with Ramsey to speed up his development, instead of watching the train wreck called Brunell, which did nothing more than waste valuable time that could have been used to speed up Ramseys development.

Here's a new's flash Gibbs QB's whether they can or can't are not scrambler's regardless of how slow or fast they are, the only thing Gibbs does with the QB is roll the QB outside and set up a pocket, but it's all controlled and the ability to scramble is not a big deal for a Gibbs offense

As for performances by Ramsey didn't he move us up and down the field against the Giant's? In 1 half in relief of Brunell he moved the ball more than Brunell moved the ball in every one of his games combined, and if Gardner had at least the hands of an 8 year old, Ramsey would have won that game for us completing a come back out of a hole Brunell created in his first action of the season.

I really would like to know what Joey T's punt return's at the start of his career have to do with an over the hill Brunell? JT came out of college back in 71 and returned kicks for us in 74' which means he was a pro for 10 years before Gibbs ever coached the man, which also means I was watching him return kick's before you were an itch in your daddy's pant's. In case you haven't noticed this is a Skin's forum that bit of trivia you threw out is mere child's play around here, but just for the record in case you were wondering I go back to the Sonny and Billy day's, thats Jurgenson and Kilmer in case your redskin history doesn't go back that far.

all coaches would like for their QB to be a passer first..playmaker second! Even in Atlanta, Mora wanted Vick to focus more on passing than running...we saw evidence of that this year.

So all those fake handoff's QB rollout's we saw from Vick all year were the progression of the pocket passer? Further more why would anyone want to limit Vick's ability by making a pocket passer out of him, in case you didn't see it he's absolutly horrible when forced to stay in the pocket

[sportscurmudgeon]

jdlea:

You said the Jags could not run the ball and did not have a good "D" and that's why they missed the playoffs? Better go check the stats. Jags' running was fine with Fred Taylor - not the best in the league but certainly not an embarrassment. The Jags stayed in contention with their defense because Musgrave's offense could not score.



As to the hand-wringing about the starting QBs last year, it was incredibly obvious to me that Joe Gibbs and the staff were not sufficiently impressed with Patrick Ramsey and what they saw on tape of his performances to go with him as the #1 guy and so they had to go out and find a better QB. They went looking and found someone who turned out not to be "better". Hi ho!!

Then came training camp. Brunell was pretty mediocre - at best - but he was better than Ramsey who was bumfuzzled on his best plays. So the staff decided to start Brunell probably figuring that he would work the kinks out during the season. Sadly, that did not happen last year and is unlikely to happen this year.

That's why Brunell started the season and why it took a long time to make the switch to Ramsey. He probably did not overwhelm the staff with his abilities on tape and he stunk out the joint in pre-season and so they probably didn't want to play him at all if they could get away with it. But Brunell's tank was so empty that they had to go to Ramsey at mid-season.

This year is THE acid test for Ramsey. He's been around for a while (4th season) and has had more than a few starts and has had plenty of snaps. He will have been working in this system for 19 months once the season starts. He needs to play at least 50% better than he did at the end of last year or the staff may conclude that he's not going to be an elite QB in the NFL in our lifetimes.

This is the the year that Ramsey has to get it done; I think he has a lot of physical potential from his right shoulder to the finger tips on his right hand; my worry is about his brain.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I would really disagree that there is low morale on the team. Honestly, judging from what I've heard out of players this pre-season, it seems that the team KNOWS it has potential and that everyone is excited for the season to start.