sam bradford

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

Roger saffold is a rookie 2nd round pick

And he's a key member of a good OL.

Originally Posted by skinster

Stephen Jackson is having a terrible year...the rams rushing attack averages 3.8 yards per rush, and has 7 total tds.

Are you trying to say that Stephen Jackson isn't a good RB?

Who is pat shurmur? I googled him and on the first page there is a movement to get him fired.

You don't know who he is but you're ready to claim he's not good b/c its suits you're point? Wow that's good logic.

Lets not get carried away on colt mccoy...he had 3 tds in 5 starts, and averages under 200 yards per game.

By the same token lets not get carried away w/ Bradord when McCoy is also having success w/ a higher QB rating (against tougher competition).

[skinster]

Originally Posted by 30gut

And he's a key member of a good OL.

Are you trying to say that Stephen Jackson isn't a good RB?

You don't know who he is but you're ready to claim he's not good b/c its suits you're point? Wow that's good logic.

By the same token lets not get carried away w/ Bradord when McCoy is also having success w/ a higher QB rating (against tougher competition).

Not sure how key of a member Saffold is, and I'm not sure how good the O-line is. Lets get real, zero of us watch the rams games enough to know how good saffold is doing. I know I will get jumped on for saying this, but I do think it is reasonable to say he is not ideal just based on the fact that he is a rookie second rounder.

Yes, I am saying that Steven Jackson is not doing well, which is not helping bradford at all. And the other RB's are doing even worse.

I'm not saying that the oc is bad because I do not know if he is. I'm just saying that the fact that rams fans are calling for his job is indicative that he is clearly not the shining star that would cause bradfords success.

Lets get real, nobody in their right mind thinks McCoy is even close to Bradford. Bradford is carrying his team and putting up respectable numbers with nobody. I really don't care what McCoy's passer rating is when he has a 1:1 td to int ratio, 3 tds in 5 starts, and averages under 200 yards a game. Also, McCoy greatly benefits from Hillis in the same way that Ryan and Flacco benefited from their rushing attacks back in 2008. Before you jump to conclusions, I am not saying McCoy is bad, but IMO he has not impressed yet, and is not even comparable to bradford.

[30gut]

Someone is gaga for Bradford and won't hear of anything to the contrary

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Someone is gaga for Bradford and won't hear of anything to the contrary

If you say one bad word about Chase Daniel I'll f***ing ban your ass for life!

[NYCSkin]

Originally Posted by skinster

Not sure how key of a member Saffold is, and I'm not sure how good the O-line is. Lets get real, zero of us watch the rams games enough to know how good saffold is doing. I know I will get jumped on for saying this, but I do think it is reasonable to say he is not ideal just based on the fact that he is a rookie second rounder.

Yes, I am saying that Steven Jackson is not doing well, which is not helping bradford at all. And the other RB's are doing even worse.

I'm not saying that the oc is bad because I do not know if he is. I'm just saying that the fact that rams fans are calling for his job is indicative that he is clearly not the shining star that would cause bradfords success.

Lets get real, nobody in their right mind thinks McCoy is even close to Bradford. Bradford is carrying his team and putting up respectable numbers with nobody. I really don't care what McCoy's passer rating is when he has a 1:1 td to int ratio, 3 tds in 5 starts, and averages under 200 yards a game. Also, McCoy greatly benefits from Hillis in the same way that Ryan and Flacco benefited from their rushing attacks back in 2008. Before you jump to conclusions, I am not saying McCoy is bad, but IMO he has not impressed yet, and is not even comparable to bradford.

Allow me to be the one to jump first...

Saffold has given up only two sacks this year as a rookie LT.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

He has no support on offense whatsoever. The rams arguably had the worst receiving corp in the league BEFORE 3 of his top 4 receivers got placed on IR. He has a second round rookie protecting his weak side, and a 30 year old career backup guard starting on his strong side (he has. He is not getting support from a running game that averages 3.8 yards per carry and only has 7 tds. And he has no tight end.

I disagree he has no healthy WRs but imo he does have the two most important factors for a young QB: a good OL and good coaching.
Stehpen Jackson is consider by most savvy NFL fan's one if the best RB in the league who BTW already has a 1,000+yards @ 3.9 ypc.
He has 2 TEs but they aren't 'name' TEs but they're producing at a high level.

Originally Posted by skinster

Not sure how key of a member Saffold is, and I'm not sure how good the O-line is. Lets get real, zero of us watch the rams games enough to know how good saffold is doing. I know I will get jumped on for saying this, but I do think it is reasonable to say he is not ideal just based on the fact that he is a rookie second rounder.

Speak for yourself my friend i watch a lot of football.
Sometimes at a bar sometimes opn RZ sometimes i even watch the NFL package 30 minute re-caps.
Saffold is playing well and the Rams have a good OL.

Yes, I am saying that Steven Jackson is not doing well, which is not helping bradford at all. And the other RB's are doing even worse.

1,000+yards 3.9 ypc is not doing well?

I'm not saying that the oc is bad because I do not know if he is. I'm just saying that the fact that rams fans are calling for his job is indicative that he is clearly not the shining star that would cause bradfords success.

How can you argue like this? Its not logical.
You don't know but you're gonna assume he's not doing a good job b/c somewhere that you don't quote claims Shurmur should be fired?
If you ask me nicely i'll tell you about Shurmur, but he has designed a nice offense predicated on Bradford making easy reads and getting the ball out quick.

Lets get real, nobody in their right mind thinks McCoy is even close to Bradford. Bradford is carrying his team and putting up respectable numbers with nobody. I really don't care what McCoy's passer rating is when he has a 1:1 td to int ratio, 3 tds in 5 starts, and averages under 200 yards a game. Also, McCoy greatly benefits from Hillis in the same way that Ryan and Flacco benefited from their rushing attacks back in 2008. Before you jump to conclusions, I am not saying McCoy is bad, but IMO he has not impressed yet, and is not even comparable to bradford.

I'll get back to this one^^

[skinster]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I disagree he has no healthy WRs but imo he does have the two most important factors for a young QB: a good OL and good coaching.
Stehpen Jackson is consider by most savvy NFL fan's one if the best RB in the league who BTW already has a 1,000+yards @ 3.9 ypc.
He has 2 TEs but they aren't 'name' TEs but they're producing at a high level.



Speak for yourself my friend i watch a lot of football.
Sometimes at a bar sometimes opn RZ sometimes i even watch the NFL package 30 minute re-caps.
Saffold is playing well and the Rams have a good OL.


1,000+yards 3.9 ypc is not doing well?


How can you argue like this? Its not logical.
You don't know but you're gonna assume he's not doing a good job b/c somewhere that you don't quote claims Shurmur should be fired?
If you ask me nicely i'll tell you about Shurmur, but he has designed a nice offense predicated on Bradford making easy reads and getting the ball out quick.


I'll get back to this one^^

3.9 ypc is junk.

His TEs are not named tight ends because they are not good...none of them have started a full season in their career.

There is literally no way you watch enough rams games to analyze how good of a job saffold is doing week in and week out. I'm calling shenanigans on that one.

I never said shurmar was bad, I just said he's not a stud oc that carries his team. Yes I do think a team movement to get him banned does say at least that much.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

3.9 ypc is junk.

How about the 1,000+ yards that goes along the with the ypc not to mention the 10th ranked yards per game that Jackson provides?

His TEs are not named tight ends because they are not good...none of them have started a full season in their career.

There production doesn't matter b/c you haven't heard of them before?
There's literally no logic in your statement.
You realize that every player at some point has never started a full season in their career at somepoint?

There is literally no way you watch enough rams games to analyze how good of a job saffold is doing week in and week out. I'm calling shenanigans on that one.

Just b/c you don't watch a lot of football doesn't stop the rest of us from watching other teams.
Also i never said i analyzed Saffold but you're making a blind claim about him just b/c it suits you're argument, which again is the absence of logic and another poster cleared up the question about Saffold quite nicely for us.

I never said shurmar was bad, I just said he's not a stud oc that carries his team. Yes I do think a team movement to get him banned does say at least that much.

If you back pedal any further you're fall off a ledge.
LoL a team movement? Really?
Care to support claims w/something? a quote a link something

[skinster]

[quote]

Originally Posted by 30gut

How about the 1,000+ yards that goes along the with the ypc not to mention the 10th ranked yards per game that Jackson provides?

Jackson is the only one on that team that gets carries...that is why he is ranked so high in yards. 3.9 yds per carry is even less impressive when you have only 4 tds...indicative on not being a short yardage back.

There production doesn't matter b/c you haven't heard of them before?
There's literally no logic in your statement.
You realize that every player at some point has never started a full season in their career at somepoint

You misinterpret me. I'm not saying that because they are not know that automatically means they are not good, I'm saying that with these guys they are not known because they are not good...look at their start totals.
Any quality TE would have started at least close to one full season.

Just b/c you don't watch a lot of football doesn't stop the rest of us from watching other teams.
Also i never said i analyzed Saffold but you're making a blind claim about him just b/c it suits you're argument, which again is the absence of logic and another poster cleared up the question about Saffold quite nicely for us.

First of all, you did say you watch them play, and said saffold is good...you honestly can't know that about an O-lineman unless you are paying attention to him, please don't backtrack.

Second of all, there is no blind claim being made. It is a claim based on statistics. Putting ANY rookie offensive linemen in usually isn't ideal, but to have a non-first round OL really isn't ideal. Yes it's true he could be doing well. But with not having analyzed him it is not unreasonable to assume that a second round rookie OL isn't ideal.

Thirdly (is that a word?), sacks is not a statistic. The reason behind that is it is too hard to know who gave up what sack. Bradford's been sacked 27 times playing in the nfc west...someone has got to be busting some coverages on that great o-line. But 2 credited is still impressive, I might be wrong and he might be good, but even if he is I do not find it wrong for me to assume that he is not an ideal blind protector this year (just like I still don't think bellicheck made the wrong decision to go for it on 4th and 2 against the colts last year)

Lastly, I watch every football time slot on TV...which is 4 a week during most weeks. That's only 8 teams a week I can watch playing at any given time...so at most I'd only be able to have seen about 3 rams games so far if I chose to watch them over other games. That's simple math telling us that no, you most definitely have not watched enough rams games to make any statement about their left tackle.

If you back pedal any further you're fall off a ledge.
LoL a team movement? Really?
Care to support claims w/something? a quote a link something

I would love you to show me when I said he was bad.
And I had a typo about the "team movement" comment, I meant to say "home team movement" as in the fans not the players. But I actually just read the link I saw, and I was wrong about that too. Here's the link I saw St. Louis Please Fire Pat Shurmur Still the guy does not seem to have a good enough pedigree to credit bradfords success to him.

Lastly, please stop insulting my logic, trust me, there is nothing wrong with it.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

Jackson is the only one on that team that gets carries...that is why he is ranked so high in yards. 3.9 yds per carry is even less impressive when you have only 4 tds...indicative on not being a short yardage back.

Assumptions my friend assumptions and opinions.
Your discounting his yards per game.

You misinterpret me. I'm not saying that because they are not know[n] that automatically means they are not good, I'm saying that with these guys they are not known because they are not good...look at their start totals. Any quality TE would have started at least close to one full season.

LoL, i actually get the distinction you're trying to make but it still doesn't hold water b/c these Fells and Bejema together are giving quality production from the TE spot.

First of all, you did say you watch them play, and said saffold is good...you honestly can't know that about an O-lineman unless you are paying attention to him, please don't backtrack.

I'm not backtracking at all there's a difference between your strawman which claimed i was analyzing week in and week out:

Originally Posted by skinster

There is literally no way you watch enough rams games to analyze how good of a job saffold is doing week in and week out. I'm calling shenanigans on that one.

I like most fans don't know enough about the being a waist bender, leg kick, dip and drive to analyze OL. But i know enough to watch and see a guy not getting beat i.e a guy playing well.

Originally Posted by 30gut

Speak for yourself my friend i watch a lot of football.
Sometimes at a bar sometimes opn RZ sometimes i even watch the NFL package 30 minute re-caps.
Saffold is playing well and the Rams have a good OL.

Second of all, there is no blind claim being made. It is a claim based on statistics. Putting ANY rookie offensive linemen in usually isn't ideal, but to have a non-first round OL really isn't ideal. Yes it's true he could be doing well. But with not having analyzed him it is not unreasonable to assume that a second round rookie OL isn't ideal.

Its unreasonable to make any assumption based on a blind hunch.
Its also unreasonable to assume that rookie OL aren't ideal or that non-1st round also aren't ideal.
Teams draft OL all through the draft w/ the expectation that they will start and play well especially in rounds 1-3.

Thirdly (is that a word?), sacks is not a statistic.... But 2 credited is still impressive, I might be wrong and he might be good, but even if he is I do not find it wrong for me to assume that he is not an ideal blind protector this year (just like I still don't think bellicheck made the wrong decision to go for it on 4th and 2 against the colts last year)

I believe the word you're looking for is tertiary.
Again your logic is very fuzzy here even though you know the truth to be contrary to your assumption you still assert your assumption?
*I agree w/ that Bellicheck made the right call.

That's simple math telling us that no, you most definitely have not watched enough rams games to make any statement about their left tackle.

I've already addressed this question earlier.
And you can look at the number of starts and the number of sacks allowed and the general consensus about Saffold and know that he's playing well.
They less you hear negative about a LT the better.
E.g did you hear anything negative about Saffold when the Rams played the Skins?
Do you hear anything negative the Rams OL or about the Saffold on ESPN or NFLN?
Home much of Joe Thomas if at all do you have to watch to know that he's playing well?

And I had a typo about the "team movement" comment, I meant to say "home team movement" as in the fans not the players. But I actually just read the link I saw, and I was wrong about that too. Here's the link I saw St. Louis Please Fire Pat Shurmur

That's a big difference from "team movement" to "home team movement" but hey we all make mistakes.
A link to a draft blog?
BTW Be careful w/ Maguire at walters draft site he can get very unprofessional w/ his draft info but i digress.

Still the guy does not seem to have a good enough pedigree to credit bradfords success to him.

Of course not b/c you don't want to give credit to anyone except Bradford.
Not the OL not the RB not the coaching.
But here's some enough about Shurmur's not good enough pedigree:

Originally Posted by West Coast pedigree makes Shurmur a sure thing

"Pat has done a heck of job," Reid said. "It's not easy filling in for Brad Childress. I know Donovan (McNabb) has a lot of respect for Pat."
It's not a huge surprise Shurmur is where he is. Coaching is in the family. His uncle, Fritz Shurmur, was Green Bay's defensive coordinator when Reid was an offensive assistant for the Packers. In the early '90s, Shurmur coached the offensive line, tight ends at special teams at Michigan State. When the family visited Fritz in Green Bay, Shurmur stopped by Reid's office.

In the film room and practice, Shurmur will tell McNabb what to look for and what to do in certain situations.

If a cornerback or safety does this, McNabb should look for that. If a linebacker does this, McNabb should watch for that.

"From a psychological standpoint, he does a great job of making all of us quarterbacks, particularly Donovan, relaxed about the game plan and all the different situations that could come up in a game," Detmer said. "He doesn't get all worked about whether it's good or bad. You're going to have highs and lows. Lots of things are going on, and you've got to be able to stay calm."

USATODAY.com - West Coast pedigree makes Shurmur a sure thing

Originally Posted by BY BERNIE MIKLASZ, Post-Dispatch Sports

No. 1, Shurmur is keeping rookie quarterback Sam Bradford out of harm's way most of the time. Only 5.5 percent of the Rams' attempts to pass end in a sack. That's among the lowest sack rates in the NFL this season. That's also the lowest sack rate by a Rams offense since the team moved to St. Louis in 1995. Reducing sacks not only minimizes the number of hits on Bradford, it also helps the Rams avoid drive-killing negative plays. A passing game that gets rid of the ball quickly also gives young offensive tackles Rodger Saffold and Jason Smith a chance to develop under more reasonable circumstances. Saffold and Smith have allowed only three sacks (combined) this season.

No. 2, Bradford is developing a rhythm and confidence in the West Coast offense. This has been a superb experience for Bradford to learn how to master the shorter pass routes that form the foundation of the West Coast offense. Bradford has put his surprisingly deft mobility into action with rollout passes. Bradford has distributed the ball to many receivers; even if the passes are short, it helps to keep the defense off guard about knowing where the ball will go. Establishing the discipline required to run this offense is a valuable component to a quarterback's development. Bradford is nailing down the fundamentals; he'll be more prepared to take the St. Louis passing game to the next level in 2011.

No. 3, the Shurmur concept of going methodical is setting the Rams up on some long and fruitful scoring drives. They rank seventh in the NFL in 10-play drives. They're 11th in the league in points produced (50) from 10-play scoring drives. They are tied for ninth for the largest number of possessions that last five minutes or longer. Their average scoring drive lasts 8.8 plays and 3 minutes, 57 seconds; only four NFL teams are going on longer marches to secure points.

Bradford is a crucial factor in the success. He's been special on third-down plays, keeping drives going with timely completions. Bradford has connected on 60 percent of his third-down throws. He has six touchdowns and no interceptions on third down. Bradford's third-down passer rating of 101.2 is the league's sixth best. And the Rams are 11th in the NFL in converting third downs.

Shurmur gets the most out of Rams' offense

^^Great article about Shurmur and the Rams offense

Lastly, please stop insulting my logic, trust me, there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm not "insulting" your logic either i'm questioning the validity of some of your logic.

[rypper11]

Originally Posted by skinster

3.9 ypc is junk.

His TEs are not named tight ends because they are not good...none of them have started a full season in their career.

There is literally no way you watch enough rams games to analyze how good of a job saffold is doing week in and week out. I'm calling shenanigans on that one.

I do watch a lot of Rams games (not all mind you because they are sometimes at the same time as the Skins) and, while I can't say anything specifically about Saffold, the OLine is good but inconsistent.
Jackson is still a stud RB if not one of the best in the league. Part of his ypc avg being below 4.0 is the 10man fronts he's facing. There is no viable deep threat to stretch the field.
When games are tied he's averaging 5.0 ypc, when the Rams are behind it's 4.5 and when ahead it's only 3.1. Against Seattle and Carolina (both wins) the whole defense knew he was getting the ball and he still was running over guys though he was being hit first in the backfield and gaining very little yardage.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

Lets get real, nobody in their right mind thinks McCoy is even close to Bradford.

Only time will answer this question.
But there are some former coaches turned analyst that thought very highly of and McCoy and one who claimed that McCoy was the most pro-ready of the QBs to some out last year.

Bradford is carrying his team and putting up respectable numbers with nobody.

Finally we agree.

I really don't care what McCoy's passer rating is when he has a 1:1 td to int ratio, 3 tds in 5 starts, and averages under 200 yards a game.

How can argue with this logic when you flat out dismiss one of the main metric used to judge QB performance?

Also, McCoy greatly benefits from Hillis

Stephen Jackson actually gives Bradford more yards per game then Hillis does for the Browns: 83.2 ypg vs 82.3 ypg
NFL Stats: by Player Category

IMO he has not impressed yet, and is not even comparable to bradford.

Of course you're not impressed by McCoy (for one you've probably never watched him play) b/c in your mind it would probably take away from Bradford's performance.
But, if you were to take an honest look at McCoy's 1st starts even statistically w/o watching the games you can see he's gone up against against some pretty good defenses like the Steelers and Jets defense that gives established NFL QBs fits he's played well.

[skinster]

How can argue with this logic when you flat out dismiss one of the main metric used to judge QB performance?

Its just what I value when evaluating qb's. I've noticed that as a trend, the quarterbacks that throw the most td passes year in and year out have a tendency to be the best....same with rookie qb's and projecting them. Not always right, but its what I've found to be the most accurate measurement of rookie qbs.

Stephen Jackson actually gives Bradford more yards per game then Hillis does for the Browns: 83.2 ypg vs 82.3 ypg
NFL Stats: by Player Category

Actually the browns get more yards per game than the rams. But they are close enough that it is irrelivant. What I find to be most relivant for a featured back is YPC and TDs. The fact that Jackson has significantly worse ypc, but the same yards means that the rams (bradford) completes more 3rd down conversions than the browns.

Of course you're not impressed by McCoy (for one you've probably never watched him play) b/c in your mind it would probably take away from Bradford's performance.
But, if you were to take an honest look at McCoy's 1st starts even statistically w/o watching the games you can see he's gone up against against some pretty good defenses like the Steelers and Jets defense that gives established NFL QBs fits he's played well.

Thanks bud, your a pal. Anyways, I view McCoy as a lesser roethlesberger. Someone who is not a conventional qb, but finds a way to win. His numbers do suck though, and he has not done enough to convince me beyond doubt that he has what it takes to lead a winning ballclub. I haven't written McCoy off yet, but he still hasn't done enough to prove anything to me.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

Actually the browns get more yards per game than the rams. But they are close enough that it is irrelivant.

Right.
But you said this:

Also, McCoy greatly benefits from Hillis

Which is why i pointed out that in fact Stephen Jackson gives Bradford more YPG then Hillis gives the Browns:

Originally Posted by 30gut

Stephen Jackson actually gives Bradford more yards per game then Hillis does for the Browns: 83.2 ypg vs 82.3 ypg
NFL Stats: by Player Category

What I find to be most relivant for a featured back is YPC and TDs. The fact that Jackson has significantly worse ypc, but the same yards means that the rams (bradford) completes more 3rd down conversions than the browns.

This is a unsupported blanket assumption/opinion/speculation the lower ypc could have any number of meanings.

Anyways, I view McCoy as a lesser roethlesberger. Someone who is not a conventional qb, but finds a way to win. His numbers do suck though, and he has not done enough to convince me beyond doubt that he has what it takes to lead a winning ballclub. I haven't written McCoy off yet, but he still hasn't done enough to prove anything to me.

Colts numbers sucks? But Bradford's are the best you've ever seen for a rookie QB?
81/127---63.8 comp %
975 yards
7.7 YPA
3 TDs/ 3 INTs
85.3 QB Rating

I view McCoy kinda like a cross between a more disciplined version of Romo and a bigger stronger armed Jeff Garcia.
Anyway here's some McCoy highlights:

[skinster]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Right.
But you said this:

Which is why i pointed out that in fact Stephen Jackson gives Bradford more YPG then Hillis gives the Browns:



This is a unsupported blanket assumption/opinion/speculation the lower ypc could have any number of meanings.



Colts numbers sucks? But Bradford's are the best you've ever seen for a rookie QB?
81/127---63.8 comp %
975 yards
7.7 YPA
3 TDs/ 3 INTs
85.3 QB Rating

I view McCoy kinda like a cross between a more disciplined version of Romo and a bigger stronger armed Jeff Garcia.
Anyway here's some McCoy highlights:

I do have responses for your posts, but I'm craming for finals now. I'm not going to respond, but don't think this means I'm done...I'll be back (hopefully I'll remember to be back).