8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

More people, it seems, can relate to a billionaire that runs a business than a millionaire athlete that has taken advantage of natural talents. To many, players don't deserve much respect because all they are doing is playing a game.

Bizarre to say the least.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I think this is from North Dallas 40: "When we say it's a game, they say it's a business. When we say it's business, they say it's a game."

Let me start by saying I have come off a bit from my earlier take on things (still think DeMaurice is just a high priced ambo chaser and douche). Plenty of shady legal wrangling by both sides - players "decertification", owners TV deal. Lots of legal posturing by both sides - to me it's clear both sides prepped for this contingency.

(BTW - For the record, and for all the reasons FRPLG said wayyyy back in the thread the "open your books" argument is a BS argument - just not going to rehash it except to say that the NFL opened its books as much as any employer should be expected to - for more than that, see the much more intelligent articulation that concept by FRPLG).

The players are like any "employees" with a useful talent. Given their ability to generate wealth for others, they, as a group, have considerable leverage in deciding how they will be compensated for this. Maybe the perception that players were just "playing a game" existed in the strikes of the 80's where the NFL was not THE predominant (by far) sporting entertainment business. NFL Football, however, has not been "just a game" for at least 30 years and in the last 10-20, IMHO, even the most ardent "fan of the game" has had any naivete on that issue torn away. The blatant fact is that the NFL is a bazillion dollar entertainment industry and both owners and players are completely removed in sooo many ways from the realities with which you and I deal.

[To me, its comparable to actors. I was an amatuer thespian but I have no illusion that the little theater productions I did are in any way related to the entertainment industry's block buster films. Sure, I was just acting - but Brad Pitt (who is not nearly as attractive as I am) stopped "just acting" a lonng time ago. Similarly, the guys in the NFL stopped "just playing a game" sometime in college.]

Because of that, I am just not sure that the perception that NFL players are "just playing a game" is much of a factor any more.

My own take on the seeming slide of public opinion away from the players (other than those dedicated commies like NC_Skins ) is that (1) D. Smith comes off as an incredible hard line douche; (2) the owners have parlayed the tactical decision to decertify into the public perception that the players (and not the owners) are using shady legal dealings to get the courts involved; and (3) the owners are just flat out playing the public opinion game better - Goodell may be talking out of two sides of his mouth just as much as Smith but the consistent air play is "hey, we're trying - look at our offers" compared to DeMaurice "we're going to the mattresses" Smith.

Look - it's a business. More specifically, it's an entertainment business with billionare owners and millionare employees. Just like any other business, owners will strive to maximize their profits. Just like any other business, the players will strive to maximize their earnings. I am okay with both of these concepts, it's only when owners/players start playing fast and loose with the law or their mutally agreed upon contractaul agreements that I get pissed.

Just read this over - Much like the "negotiations", I sure spent a lot of time saying not much of anything.

It definitely is. Even in this thread there have been people commenting on it. For a lot of people, professional athletes were handed a gift to play sports and take it totally for granted. There are many people out there who don't think it takes any effort to be a pro athlete and there are no long term repercussions, or better said, they deserve whatever repercussions there are because hey, they chose to play the game. A game we all wish we could play.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

More people, it seems, can relate to a billionaire that runs a business than a millionaire athlete that has taken advantage of natural talents. To many, players don't deserve much respect because all they are doing is playing a game.

Indeed they do. Let me share some gems I've come across the past couple days.

I know that I would side with the owners, just makes sense, these are the guys who hand you your paycheck. As a business owner myself I have been on the side of the owners since day 1. In my business of retail sales and service, if my employees acted like the NFLPA has acted I would not only lock them out, I would fire every damn one of them...

Nah. New NFL players are born every day. Completely replaceable. Negotiation is fine up until the point that the employee starts dictating terms of employment to the employer and then shutting down the employer's business when they can't get what they want every few years. If I were running the NFL, the PA would have one week to come back and negotiate or the union would be busted. Any player who tries to unionize would be playing in Canada from now on.

Yes people, guys like this vote. Wonder why corporate America is raping the middle class? Now you know.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

It definitely is. Even in this thread there have been people commenting on it. For a lot of people, professional athletes were handed a gift to play sports and take it totally for granted. There are many people out there who don't think it takes any effort to be a pro athlete and there are no long term repercussions, or better said, they deserve whatever repercussions there are because hey, they chose to play the game. A game we all wish we could play.

SmootSmack - To the extent that people assert players have been handed a gift and should be grateful for it - Well, in the larger sense, they have (I could work my ass off and never ever ever have the ability to make an NFL practice squad) and they should be grateful (just as we all should be for whatever gifts/talents we have that are in no way attributable to anything we did for ourselves). However, IMHO, that is in no way relevant to the argument that the players are entitled to whatever compensation for their skills that they can obtain. It's just business baby.

If the argument that "players are just playing a game" is really being made as to why any one should side with the owners, I would disagree heartily - these are highly skilled employees who must work hard at their craft to maintain employment. Gifted or not, the players (as a whole and a very few in particular) are massive wealth generators for their employers and have a right to be leverage that ability to maximize their earnings.

NC_Skins - Neither of those illustrations are illustrations of players are "just playing a game" and, therefore shouldn't be taken seriously. Rather, it's illustrative of the concept that "players are just employees and business owners have the right to run their own businesses as they see fit." It is simply people who side with employers rather than employees. You hate big corporations, they are always evil, and it is okay to manipulate the law to stick it to them. Two wrongs make a right as long as the second wrong is the little guy wronging a corporation/rich guy. We get it.

I know you think players are the game, sacrosanct, irreplaceble etc. but the bottom line is that they are just employees (incredibly talented and gifted employees, but employees nonetheless - I doubt they could even be considered "independent contractors" under the relevant labor laws), they are not the game (w/out the capital investment, marketing and business plan of the owners - these guys are not splitting up 9.0 Billion), and they are, ultimately, replaceable over the long term (again, did you stop rooting for the B&G when your favorite player left/retired? Didn't think so). If the owners/employers want to cut off their nose to spite their face, that makes them stupid not evil. If players want to do the same, same is true of them.

As has been said, if these two groups can't figure out how to cut 9.0 Billion w/out killing the goose that laid the golden egg, well, then f'em.

[SmootSmack]

I'm not saying you are making the argument the players are just playing a game. I'm just saying there are many people who side with the owners primarily for that reason

[NLC1054]

Like I said; De Smith is just CRAP about the public relations aspect of this whole mess. The owners have very clearly set themselves up as the victims in this mess.

And what does De Smith do and say? He talks about how we all "dig" then game and makes a speech at the university that was more a dig at the NFL than a speech FOR THE GRADUATES, and says "you suck".

Dude, you are not being hip and with it you pompous douchenozzle, you are hurting your position, the public perception of you clients, and making yourself seem really stupid.

After this, I'm really not sure De Smith stays on as head of the NFLPA much longer. The only hired him in preparation of the lockout. Now they're in the lockout and he's makin' stuff worse.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not saying you are making the argument the players are just playing a game. I'm just saying there are many people who side with the owners primarily for that reason

Okay. I get the distinction - on that point, I am with you and agree that it is a BS reason for siding with the owners. I probably disagree with you on the extent of that perception but won't deny it does exist.

[CRedskinsRule]

I gotta say, sounds like hopeful stuff coming off these meetings. Sirius said, and I don't know that it's a fact, that Judge Boylan may have been involved in these secret meetings, and many players, and owners. I hope that we see a lot of progress over the next week or two. Especially with the court ordered mediation next week, a risky court hearing tomorrow, and no word from Doty's court. I would like to think both sides are finally starting to really get serious about finding that common ground they need to get a deal done.

[JoeRedskin]

I would hope so CRed, but, just like a beautiful woman, 9 billion dollars can make otherwise reasonable men be all kinds of stupid. (See, see ... pithy, short and relevant. It can be done!!).

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I won't be surprised if this is how things get resolved, boom out of the blue there will be some sort of deal, or a lifting of the lockout.

Looks like it wasn't just the owners. D. Smith was there as well along with a few players. And yes Judge Boylan was also in attendance

[SmootSmack]

Didn't realize there was actually a story up about it

AP source: Goodell, Smith, players meeting - seattlepi.com

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Didn't realize there was actually a story up about it

AP source: Goodell, Smith, players meeting - seattlepi.com

That story kinda makes it sound like Judge Boylan did call the meeting. If so then I am a little less hopeful, mainly cuz I thought the two sides had put it together. Any meetings can't be al bad though.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

That story kinda makes it sound like Judge Boylan did call the meeting. If so then I am a little less hopeful, mainly cuz I thought the two sides had put it together. Any meetings can't be al bad though.

I'm not sure that's accurate. I mean I know it's what the AP is saying, but I've heard from others he's just there he didn't call it and he's not mediating it or anything like that

[NC_Skins]

I'm still down for Smith and Goodell fighting 1v1 gladiator style. Winner take all. Hell, they can pay-per-view it. Even hold it at beloved Jerry World(minus broken seats).

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I'm still down for Smith and Goodell fighting 1v1 gladiator style. Winner take all. Hell, they can pay-per-view it. Even hold it at beloved Jerry World(minus broken seats).

Lol, that would actually be a good crappy fight. And yes you read that right. I doubt both of them could really fight and would probably just end up in a bunch of grapples that lead no where, but they both look somewhat physically imposing. At least more then your average bloke.