Chris Cooley/Fred Davis

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Why on earth would Davis resign here to play second fiddle to Cooley when he'd be starting on any other team?

ANY other team? Really? He has shown folks that he is THE BEST tight end in the NFL? [That is what it means to say he would start on ANY other team!]

[saden1]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You don't keep 2 starters at the same position on your team. It serves no purpose. It's all about acquiring resources and other needs for the surplus you have. The good teams do it, bad ones do not. Buy low, sell high.

Does this philosophy work when your starring qb or left tackle or center goes down for the year?

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by saden1

Does this philosophy work when your starring qb or left tackle or center goes down for the year?

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Unless you have salary cap issues having two starters in one position is like having a full bag of Skittles and a full bag of Jumior Mints at the same time. You will find a way to use both and you will be damn glad you did.

In a perfect world (or Madden), you would want Chris Johnson as your starting RB and Adrian Peterson as your backup. Peyton Manning as your starting QB and Tom Brady coming off the bench. Trent Williams backing up Ryan Clady and so on.

However, in the real world, teams always have needs and holes to fill. To have two guys with starter skill sets is basically a waste. It's funny you ask about that philosophy if X person goes down. Let's look at some examples. Bill Bellicheat had Tom Brady go down. Matt Cassell comes in and tears it up. Did he keep that starting caliber QB on his team, even after a year where his starting QB went down with a injury? Nope. Traded for draft pick (even though he could have gotten a 1st for him) Andy Reid has now done it twice. Trading away starting caliber QBs when he already had one currently. In a perfect world we would, but again, there are generally other needs on teams to do this.

I challenge you both to find me one team (past or present) that has carried two pro-bowl caliber Tight Ends on their roster, or a team that has sent two TEs to the pro-bowl (or all pro) in the same season. No, teams normally have one blocking specialist and one pass catching specialist. (the great TEs do both well) I know fans keep saying, FIND A WAY TO USE BOTH, but it's not quite that simple and history shows you otherwise.

I will say this. You don't trade a person just to trade them. If you can't find value in the person you are trading, its more often better to keep them just for insurance purposes. That's the problem with the TE position. It more often or not will not net you good draft picks unless a team is in a desperate situation or feel that is a crucial piece in the remaining puzzle of theirs. In our situation, we should have traded Cooley the moment we saw what Davis could do. (providing we got value in return) That time has come and gone and better for us to just keep Cooley unless value can be met.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

In a perfect world (or Madden), you would want Chris Johnson as your starting RB and Adrian Peterson as your backup. Peyton Manning as your starting QB and Tom Brady coming off the bench. Trent Williams backing up Ryan Clady and so on.

However, in the real world, teams always have needs and holes to fill. To have two guys with starter skill sets is basically a waste. It's funny you ask about that philosophy if X person goes down. Let's look at some examples. Bill Bellicheat had Tom Brady go down. Matt Cassell comes in and tears it up. Did he keep that starting caliber QB on his team, even after a year where his starting QB went down with a injury? Nope. Traded for draft pick (even though he could have gotten a 1st for him) Andy Reid has now done it twice. Trading away starting caliber QBs when he already had one currently. In a perfect world we would, but again, there are generally other needs on teams to do this.

I challenge you both to find me one team (past or present) that has carried two pro-bowl caliber Tight Ends on their roster, or a team that has sent two TEs to the pro-bowl (or all pro) in the same season. No, teams normally have one blocking specialist and one pass catching specialist. (the great TEs do both well) I know fans keep saying, FIND A WAY TO USE BOTH, but it's not quite that simple and history shows you otherwise.

I will say this. You don't trade a person just to trade them. If you can't find value in the person you are trading, its more often better to keep them just for insurance purposes. That's the problem with the TE position. It more often or not will not net you good draft picks unless a team is in a desperate situation or feel that is a crucial piece in the remaining puzzle of theirs. In our situation, we should have traded Cooley the moment we saw what Davis could do. (providing we got value in return) That time has come and gone and better for us to just keep Cooley unless value can be met.

It's a money game and the key is which starting caliber player you should keep. In the case of Patriots they kept their older stud all-pro QB. Of course if you can't pay them both someone will eventually have to go but you better damn make sure you try to keep them both first.

There are lots of teams with two starting caliber TE. It's just that they don't all get the opportunity to play. And of course you have teams like the Seahawks who added an additional starting caliber TE and the Panthers who aquaired Olsen and Shockey during the off season. Patriots also have two very capable TE who can start for any team. Some teams like the Vikings are stocking up for the future by drafting a first class TE in Kyle Rudolph and with Shiancoe on the team.

[SmootSmack]

I wouldn't call this thread junk. It's a topic that's brought up many times. And it makes sense. You have two skilled players at one position. And it seeems more often than not, they are not using both

[Dirtbag59]

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinster

Kinda an offseason topic to talk about, but it was on my mind after looking at the players contracts so I figure I'd bring it up. Fred Davis's contract is up at season's end. Cooley has two more years left with a pretty sizeable cap number. I say we trade Cooley for whatever we can (4th/5th rounder probs considering he will be 30 next season) at seasons end and extend Davis. Davis has been a pretty shitty backup IMO, but when Cooley went down, Davis filled in great. I think its a mental thing where when he knows he's the guy he plays better. I believe Davis is a capable starting TE and I love the pats theory of trading players before they lose value. Always rebuilding leads to always having a strong team.

How is Davis a poor back-up?
You know he had the highest catch rate and 2nd highest YPC on the team?
By DVOA he's a top 5 TE.

But, overall I agree that Cooley should be traded and Davis extended, but they should have traded Cooley last year.

[skinster]

Originally Posted by 30gut

How is Davis a poor back-up?
You know he had the highest catch rate and 2nd highest YPC on the team?
By DVOA he's a top 5 TE.

But, overall I agree that Cooley should be traded and Davis extended, but they should have traded Cooley last year.

I'm not doubting your stats, but I am skeptical. I'd love to see your sources. Watching the games, Davis was drop city last year.

[saden1]

Anyone else notice how much faster Davis got off the line? He is blazing compared to last year! I expect to see him lineup at WR couple of snaps a game this year.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

I feel like this mind bottling thing is some pop culture reference I just don't get.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I feel like this mind bottling thing is some pop culture reference I just don't get.

Never saw Blades of Glory?

[celts32]

Originally Posted by skinster

Kinda an offseason topic to talk about, but it was on my mind after looking at the players contracts so I figure I'd bring it up. Fred Davis's contract is up at season's end. Cooley has two more years left with a pretty sizeable cap number. I say we trade Cooley for whatever we can (4th/5th rounder probs considering he will be 30 next season) at seasons end and extend Davis. Davis has been a pretty shitty backup IMO, but when Cooley went down, Davis filled in great. I think its a mental thing where when he knows he's the guy he plays better. I believe Davis is a capable starting TE and I love the pats theory of trading players before they lose value. Always rebuilding leads to always having a strong team.

Rather keep Cooley then get a late pick but I would hope that Davis can take this job from Cooley this year and prove that he's worth resigning as the starter here.

[skinster]

Just googled dvoa, found your stats from football outsiders. A little misleading IMO for various reasons. There's alot of crappy TE's with high DVOA ratings. Not to discredit this statistic, but take it with a big grain of salt. And as for 2nd highest YPC on the team. He had 21 catches. Having a high YPC with few catches isnt that hard. Maybe "poor" isn't the right word considering there are definitely worse backup TE's in the league, but I am unsatisfied with Fred Davis's play (and more importantly his reliability) as a whole in the 2010 season.

[firstdown]

Why would we trade one of our only play makers for at best a late round pick that may not ever play for the team?

[skinster]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Why would we trade one of our only play makers for at best a late round pick that may not ever play for the team?

He's aging, we have a replacement that we lose if we keep him, and ask Bill Belicheck, I'm sure he'll have a better response as to why he releases his aging talent on the regular.