Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'

[celts32]

I agree. And I actually think we may have more then 6 players that could start on good teams. Not every starter on good teams is a star...we have plenty of NFL caliber starting players. As far as the offense though It's very hard to evaluate what we have at the skill positions with our banged up OL and poor QB play. I do agree though that it's likely we need a #1 WR. Hank is the only one who appears to have to tools to become a #1 but with his rookie season being cut short it will be impossible to project him into that role in the off season.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by celts32

I agree. And I actually think we may have more then 6 players that could start on good teams. Not every starter on good teams is a star...we have plenty of NFL caliber starting players. As far as the offense though It's very hard to evaluate what we have at the skill positions with our banged up OL and poor QB play. I do agree though that it's likely we need a #1 WR. Hank is the only one who appears to have to tools to become a #1 but with his rookie season being cut short it will be impossible to project him into that role in the off season.

I'm curious, of our 22 healthy starters (as of yesterday) who would start for a good team in the NFL? I'd go with T. Williams, F. Davis, C. Cooley, L. Fletcher, A. Otogwe and L. Landry. It's not about 'stars' but it's about the ability to consistently win matchups at a high level. Let me be clear, I'm talking about starters on a top 8 team in the NFL, not just someone who would start on another bad team.

Originally Posted by gtripp0012

I'm not about to join in with a chorus of excuses for the job Mike Shanahan has done -- those that can find forgiveness in this are more faithful than I will ever be -- but I do have this to say: this team looks a lot worse coming off a six game losing streak than it has realistically played.

So there's some legitimate reason for optimism after this game. The offense is bad, and has very few young pieces for the future. I'm thinking it may not be unsalvageable. I don't think this coaching staff can fix the issues or it already would have. But we'll have a healthier OL next year and that should have a trickle down effect to the rest of the offense.

I'm not making excuses for the Shanny regime so far, just giving a perspective outside of the 'he's lost it, fire him, what the hell are we doing' chorus. That being said, I am far from giving up on this coaching staff. Part of the full 'Shanaplan' as I see it is a 5 year build before Mike steps off of the sideline and upstairs for good and hands things off to Kyle. And that's not a bad thing. One thing we've sorely lacked is a long term plan, vision and system. Look at the successful teams, they have had a system in place from the top down for a long time and stick with it through good and bad. Even through coaching changes they don't vary from the system. At the end of Mike's contract, Kyle would have had 7 years as a coordinator, hopefully be 3 years into a young stud QB and have the pieces to fully run a Pittsburgh style 3-4 defense.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'm curious, of our 22 healthy starters (as of yesterday) who would start for a good team in the NFL? I'd go with T. Williams, F. Davis, C. Cooley, L. Fletcher, A. Otogwe and L. Landry. It's not about 'stars' but it's about the ability to consistently win matchups at a high level. Let me be clear, I'm talking about starters on a top 8 team in the NFL, not just someone who would start on another bad team.



I'm not making excuses for the Shanny regime so far, just giving a perspective outside of the 'he's lost it, fire him, what the hell are we doing' chorus. That being said, I am far from giving up on this coaching staff. Part of the full 'Shanaplan' as I see it is a 5 year build before Mike steps off of the sideline and upstairs for good and hands things off to Kyle. And that's not a bad thing. One thing we've sorely lacked is a long term plan, vision and system. Look at the successful teams, they have had a system in place from the top down for a long time and stick with it through good and bad. Even through coaching changes they don't vary from the system. At the end of Mike's contract, Kyle would have had 7 years as a coordinator, hopefully be 3 years into a young stud QB and have the pieces to fully run a Pittsburgh style 3-4 defense.

I don't answer that question by matching up players on other teams. The way I would answer it is to look at our players and ask myself if we can build a top 8 team with this person starting. I think in the future we can have a top team with these players starting:

1. T. Williams
2. F. Davis,
3. L. Fletcher,
4. A. Otogwe
5. L. Landry
6. Kerrigan
7. Orakpo
8. Jenkins
9. Moss
10. Cofield
11. Chester
12. Rocca
13. Wilson

I am sure if i took the time to see where they fit best I could place all these guys in a good teams lineup. And we also have some other young players who could become good starters with more experience. The bottom line is we suck at QB and when you don't score it makes everyone look bad and leads fans to think that there are no good players on the team. I don't think it's true...sure we still have holes and a lack of depth but the roster is 1000% better then it was when Vinny got canned.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by celts32

I don't answer that question by matching up players on other teams. The way I would answer it is to look at our players and ask myself if we can build a top 8 team with this person starting. I think in the future we can have a top team with these players starting:

1. T. Williams
2. F. Davis,
3. L. Fletcher,
4. A. Otogwe
5. L. Landry
6. Kerrigan
7. Orakpo
8. Jenkins
9. Moss
10. Cofield
11. Chester
12. Rocca
13. Wilson

I am sure if i took the time to see where they fit best I could place all these guys in a good teams lineup. And we also have some other young players who could become good starters with more experience. The bottom line is we suck at QB and when you don't score it makes everyone look bad and leads fans to think that there are no good players on the team. I don't think it's true...sure we still have holes and a lack of depth but the roster is 1000% better then it was when Vinny got canned.

I completely forgot about Kerrigan and Rak and in my original 6 had them in place of Atogwe and Cooley. (damn multitasking and forgetting what I was doing!) I think there is some young talent and we will be much better 12 months from today than we are today.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'm not making excuses for the Shanny regime so far, just giving a perspective outside of the 'he's lost it, fire him, what the hell are we doing' chorus. That being said, I am far from giving up on this coaching staff. Part of the full 'Shanaplan' as I see it is a 5 year build before Mike steps off of the sideline and upstairs for good and hands things off to Kyle. And that's not a bad thing. One thing we've sorely lacked is a long term plan, vision and system. Look at the successful teams, they have had a system in place from the top down for a long time and stick with it through good and bad. Even through coaching changes they don't vary from the system. At the end of Mike's contract, Kyle would have had 7 years as a coordinator, hopefully be 3 years into a young stud QB and have the pieces to fully run a Pittsburgh style 3-4 defense.

I don't think Shanahan has "lost it", I just don't think he was a smart hire, or more to the point, a hire that suggested that we had broken out of the loop of hires/fires that alternated between someone unproven and an overvalued retread. It was natural to follow Zorn with Shanahan, much as it was natural to follow Spurrier with Gibbs. Gibbs, at least, made a ton of sense as a hire for the franchise in 2004, Shanahan made no sense, ever. He's pretty much coached like a guy who doesn't have a clue, and I don't understand why more was ever expected.

A 5-year rebuild seems like a total give up at winning at this point. Just move in the right direction. I don't think Kyle is ever going to head coach any team, much less the Redskins. I don't know or think that this will be his last shot at calling offensive plays in the NFL or at least college, he's young enough to earn a chance.

The biggest problem with a 5-year rebuilding plan is that it is essentially an admission that nothing we're doing right now matters. Rookie contracts are only 4 years long, and beyond that, the entire roster has already been overturned since the Shanahan's took over. It's not that there aren't positives to take away from the last two years, it's just that we have no more young talent now than we did when Shanahan took over, gutted the young talent from the roster, and set us back.

No, I'm not suggesting he's going to cut Kerrigan or Orakpo or something crazy, but the Cerrato picks that panned out are all at the end of their contracts and there's still no clear picture as to where guys like Landry, Fred Davis, Will Montgomery, Rob Jackson, Graham Gano, Anthony Armstrong, and Darrel Young fit into a long term organizational philosophy. Fletcher is at the end of his contract, as is Carriker, Golston, Buchanon, et al. The Shanahan pickups that have contributed such as Banks, Wilson, Gaffney, Chester, Torain, Cofield, and Bowen, have done so incredibly inconsistently.

Who are the best players on the Redskins? Ryan Kerrigan, London Fletcher, Brian Orakpo, Fred Davis, LaRon Landry, Santana Moss? Anyone else belong in the top six? That's two Cerrato acquisitions, three Gibbs acquisitions, and just one from Shanahan/Allen.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

A 5-year rebuild seems like a total give up at winning at this point. Just move in the right direction. I don't think Kyle is ever going to head coach any team, much less the Redskins. I don't know or think that this will be his last shot at calling offensive plays in the NFL or at least college, he's young enough to earn a chance.

The biggest problem with a 5-year rebuilding plan is that it is essentially an admission that nothing we're doing right now matters. Rookie contracts are only 4 years long, and beyond that, the entire roster has already been overturned since the Shanahan's took over. It's not that there aren't positives to take away from the last two years, it's just that we have no more young talent now than we did when Shanahan took over, gutted the young talent from the roster, and set us back.

No, I'm not suggesting he's going to cut Kerrigan or Orakpo or something crazy, but the Cerrato picks that panned out are all at the end of their contracts and there's still no clear picture as to where guys like Landry, Fred Davis, Will Montgomery, Rob Jackson, Graham Gano, Anthony Armstrong, and Darrel Young fit into a long term organizational philosophy. Fletcher is at the end of his contract, as is Carriker, Golston, Buchanon, et al. The Shanahan pickups that have contributed such as Banks, Wilson, Gaffney, Chester, Torain, Cofield, and Bowen, have done so incredibly inconsistently.

Who are the best players on the Redskins? Ryan Kerrigan, London Fletcher, Brian Orakpo, Fred Davis, LaRon Landry, Santana Moss? Anyone else belong in the top six? That's two Cerrato acquisitions, three Gibbs acquisitions, and just one from Shanahan/Allen.

Help me out, exactly what 'young talent' did Shanahan gut? I don't see ANY young players who were here in 2009 that are not here now who are out there killing it for another team.

As for the best players on the team I'd put T. Williams, Moss, Davis from the offense, Kerrigan, Rak, Fletcher, Landry from the defense and sadly, Rocca from ST. That adds two more Shanahan players. Plus the Shanahan/Allen free agency moves have been depth/upgrade moves (backups to starters for now but nobody outside of Cofield getting major money for their position) rather than splashes that commit us long term to any players so the slow build of the roster isn't disrupted. This offseason I expect us to ratchet up the aggressiveness a lot and make some big plays for positions of major need.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Help me out, exactly what 'young talent' did Shanahan gut? I don't see ANY young players who were here in 2009 that are not here now who are out there killing it for another team.

As for the best players on the team I'd put T. Williams, Moss, Davis from the offense, Kerrigan, Rak, Fletcher, Landry from the defense and sadly, Rocca from ST. That adds two more Shanahan players. Plus the Shanahan/Allen free agency moves have been depth/upgrade moves (backups to starters for now but nobody outside of Cofield getting major money for their position) rather than splashes that commit us long term to any players so the slow build of the roster isn't disrupted. This offseason I expect us to ratchet up the aggressiveness a lot and make some big plays for positions of major need.

Well, you have Edwin Williams starting for the Bears and you have Chad Rinehart in for the Bills. Keiland Williams wasn't here in 2009, but he's a nice piece for what Detroit is doing this year. Heyer is a reserve in Oakland now, but in that role, I like him. Jason Campbell isn't young anymore but, yeah. The Redskins? Well, they employ Tyler Polumbus, Tashard Choice, John Beck, and Jammal Brown now.

I ommitted Trent Williams before, and I can't say that was a good decision. He may not be a top six player or a great use of a fourth overall pick, but he's a good player at a critical position. Love Rocca, but I think the Redskins need to produce more from the draft (you can blame the coaches and injuries that the 2011 draft hasn't produced multiple starters at this point) and all they showed this offseason was that they can spend a ton of money in free agency while improving the team just a little bit.

When you look at the FA class, they might be able to avoid a FA bust pending the next couple of years, but the only guy who is providing value on the contract he signed is Rocca.