Sean Taylor or Ed Reed

[offiss]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Let me frame this question differently for a moment.


Who is the better WR, Rod Gardner or Art Monk?


Gardner is bigger and faster and probably stronger than Monk ever was or ever hoped to be. So, if I look at the physical skills and imagine in my mind's eye what MIGHT happen if all of those skills were put to use in a 100% efficient and effective manner, then Rod Gardner is clearly the better WR - - and it would not even be close.

Damn! There's that pesky thing about the mental aspects of the game and the concentration and the work and the study and the fire in the gut to beat the guy wearing that other colored jersey. But that's not important because Gardner is bigger and stronger and faster, right?

Now change the names here to Sean Taylor and Ed Reed (or Brian Dawkins for that matter) and you will have your answer.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Let me frame this question differently for a moment.

Who is the better WR, Rod Gardner or Art Monk?

Gardner is bigger and faster and probably stronger than Monk ever was or ever hoped to be. So, if I look at the physical skills and imagine in my mind's eye what MIGHT happen if all of those skills were put to use in a 100% efficient and effective manner, then Rod Gardner is clearly the better WR - - and it would not even be close.

Damn! There's that pesky thing about the mental aspects of the game and the concentration and the work and the study and the fire in the gut to beat the guy wearing that other colored jersey. But that's not important because Gardner is bigger and stronger and faster, right?

Now change the names here to Sean Taylor and Ed Reed (or Brian Dawkins for that matter) and you will have your answer.

SC,

I'm not sure why you so strongly dislike Taylor. I know he's acted like a bonehead, but I could name about 10 other stellar NFL players who acted like immature, irresponsible, and irreverent kids when they were......kids. I also know a few great former Redskins who I won't name (uh Diesel or unleaded regular?), who showed up drunk with beer in hand to his first meeting with Joe Gibbs, who regularly fell asleep and snored through team meetings, who got drunk and told Supreme Court Justice Sandra D. O'Connor to "loosen up Sandy baby," and who went out drinking the day before games.

Whatever you think of Taylor's off-the-field antics, his on-field presence is amazing. Last season, Taylor started 3 fewer games than our number one cornerback Shawn Springs and he still managed to have two more passes defensed (with 9). In 13 starts he had 6 turnovers (which projects into roughly 8 turnovers a season). If he starts all 16 games this season, with one season of experience under his belt, don't be surprised if he gets 10+ turnovers and 110+ tackles - that's a game-changer. Gregg Williams, who knows a thing or two about defensive players, has publicly said Taylor is the most gifted athelete he's ever coached - and that's praise coming from a guy who should've been livid that Taylor skipped OTAs.

And let me pre-empt your "he choked on 3 plays last season." Again, the guy was a rookie! Rookie DBs are supposed to choke on far more plays than that. I saw Taylor make five great plays for every one bad play.

Saying that Taylor is to Reed what Gardner is to Monk is crazy-speak. I don't there's a single defensive coordinator on the league who wouldn't give their left leg for Taylor. Do you really think Taylor will be cut from this team in two seasons? If so, I'd love to take a hit from your bong because mine must be broken. J/K SC.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Some would even give their 3rd leg...

[sportscurmudgeon]

Ramseyfan:


I have said it before - let me say it again. I do NOT hate Sean Taylor even a little bit.

Someone asked - presumably seriously - if he was better than Ed Reed - who is a bonafide All-Pro and someone who has been a defensive leader for a team that has been a Super Bowl Champ. Given a couple more seasons on the level he has been on, Ed Reed is a serious candidate for the Hall of Fame.

Now we have Sean Taylor whose career thusfar on the field allows you to compare his "passes defensed" stats with those of Shawn Springs. Pardon me while I yawn for a moment. And that makes my point completely.

Sean Taylor has prodigious physical talent to play NFL football. So far he has had ONE season that was interesting because of his big hits and "passes defensed" and disappointing because of his game-losing plays. But it was ONE season on a LOSING team and somehow that leads some folks to pose serious questions about if he is better than Ed Reed - - or even Brian Dawkins who is not as good as Ed Reed but as of June 2005 is better than Sean Taylor. That's where I get off the train. Sorry. Maybe Taylor will be better than both of those guys some day, but that day is way into the future and that day is not guaranteed to be with the Washington Redskins. So I prefer not to fantasize about them.

I do NOT hate Sean Taylor but I am not going to say he is a great football player until he shows greatness on the field. And by the way, defensing more passes than Shawn Springs is not a measure of greatness...

The analogy to Monk and Gardner is perfectly appropriate. Monk excelled on the field for a long time and won championships. Gardner is a physical specimen who would put Monk to shame in a combine workout setting and who makes some highlight reel catches. Now, which one is the better NFL football player?

No one here would seriously make that comparison - maybe because it demeans Art Monk who was a Redskin. Well, even though Ed Reed is not a Redskin, it is inappropriate at the moment to compare him and his acheivements to Sean Taylor and Taylor's achievements. The analogy holds water...

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Ramseyfan:

I have said it before - let me say it again. I do NOT hate Sean Taylor even a little bit.

Someone asked - presumably seriously - if he was better than Ed Reed - who is a bonafide All-Pro and someone who has been a defensive leader for a team that has been a Super Bowl Champ. Given a couple more seasons on the level he has been on, Ed Reed is a serious candidate for the Hall of Fame.

Ed Reed is a stud and is many steps ahead of Taylor, but Reed has been in the league for several years and didn't really "come on" until last season. Taylor, as you point out, has been in for a total of 13 starts.

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Now we have Sean Taylor whose career thusfar on the field allows you to compare his "passes defensed" stats with those of Shawn Springs. Pardon me while I yawn for a moment. And that makes my point completely.

Okay, so you don't like PDs. Do you feel the same way about FFs and INTs?You coveniently left out my point that he had 6 turnovers. Or do turnovers not excite you?

In his rookie season Reed had:
85 tackles, 1 sack, 5 INTs, 0 FFs, and 7 passes defensed.

In 3 fewer starts (nearly 1/4 of a season) Taylor had:
76 tackles, 1 sack, 4 INTs, 2 FFs, and 9 passes defensed.

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

The analogy to Monk and Gardner is perfectly appropriate. Monk excelled on the field for a long time and won championships. Gardner is a physical specimen who would put Monk to shame in a combine workout setting and who makes some highlight reel catches. Now, which one is the better NFL football player?

No one here would seriously make that comparison - maybe because it demeans Art Monk who was a Redskin. Well, even though Ed Reed is not a Redskin, it is inappropriate at the moment to compare him and his acheivements to Sean Taylor and Taylor's achievements. The analogy holds water...

I'm sorry, but Gardner HAS NEVER possessed the athletic ability that ST does. Gardner was picked in the middle of the first round whereas ST was a top 5 pick despite the fact that Taylor plays safety and Gardner plays wideout. The comparison between Gardner-Monk and Taylor-Reed is dead wrong.

[monk81]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Right now Reed is the top safety in football hands down.

Taylor has all the physical tools to pass Reed, but the big question mark with Taylor is the mental aspect of his game.

If he can develop the mental part of his game, he will be better than Reed, but that's a big if right now.

Reed, if Taylor's HEAD would just match up with his talent he would be the #1 safety.......here's hoping maturing kicks in sooner or later ..........

[monk81]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Ramseyfan:


I have said it before - let me say it again. I do NOT hate Sean Taylor even a little bit.

Someone asked - presumably seriously - if he was better than Ed Reed - who is a bonafide All-Pro and someone who has been a defensive leader for a team that has been a Super Bowl Champ. Given a couple more seasons on the level he has been on, Ed Reed is a serious candidate for the Hall of Fame.

Now we have Sean Taylor whose career thusfar on the field allows you to compare his "passes defensed" stats with those of Shawn Springs. Pardon me while I yawn for a moment. And that makes my point completely.

Sean Taylor has prodigious physical talent to play NFL football. So far he has had ONE season that was interesting because of his big hits and "passes defensed" and disappointing because of his game-losing plays. But it was ONE season on a LOSING team and somehow that leads some folks to pose serious questions about if he is better than Ed Reed - - or even Brian Dawkins who is not as good as Ed Reed but as of June 2005 is better than Sean Taylor. That's where I get off the train. Sorry. Maybe Taylor will be better than both of those guys some day, but that day is way into the future and that day is not guaranteed to be with the Washington Redskins. So I prefer not to fantasize about them.

I do NOT hate Sean Taylor but I am not going to say he is a great football player until he shows greatness on the field. And by the way, defensing more passes than Shawn Springs is not a measure of greatness...

The analogy to Monk and Gardner is perfectly appropriate. Monk excelled on the field for a long time and won championships. Gardner is a physical specimen who would put Monk to shame in a combine workout setting and who makes some highlight reel catches. Now, which one is the better NFL football player?

No one here would seriously make that comparison - maybe because it demeans Art Monk who was a Redskin. Well, even though Ed Reed is not a Redskin, it is inappropriate at the moment to compare him and his acheivements to Sean Taylor and Taylor's achievements. The analogy holds water...

YEAH ART MONK!!!

[sportscurmudgeon]

Ramseyfan:

No one - not I nor anyone else here - was trying to compare Gardner's athetic skills with Sean Taylors. Only you brought that into the disucssion so let me say that you have discoverd the obvious. Sean Taylor is far more athletic than Rod Gardner. That and four bucks will get you a latte at Starbucks. The analogy goes like this:

Taylor is a stud; he is a better "athlete" than Ed Reed; Reed has accomplished ten miles more on the field than Taylor has; Reed has shown that he is a great player; Taylor has not yet shown that. THEREFORE, comparing the two of them is premature at best and silly at worst.


Gardner is a stud; he is a better "athlete" than Art Monk; MOnk accomplished ten miles more on the field than Gardner has; Mond showed he was a great player; Garnder has not yet shown that. THEREFORE, comparing the two of them would be ridiculous at this point.


Ed Reed didn't come on until last season? I think there are a whole bunch of offensive coordinators in the NFL who might raise an eyebrow at that statement. Reed has continued to get better throughout his career, but he was hardly a stiff in prior years.


I've said this before too. Greatness in a team or a player is usually self-evident. Great teams point to their records and go on about their business; great players - even when stuck on bad teams demonstrate their greatness without fans having to concoct measures for them where they stand out.

Again let me use an analogy. Barry Sanders was a great player; he played on bad teams most of his career. When people talk about Barry Sanders, they don't have to manufacture yardsicks for him to surpass such as "defensed more passes than Shawn Springs". They don't compare his "rookie stats" with other players. They acknowledge his greatness because of everything he accomplished on the field. Same with Walter Payton playing for a whole bunch of sorry-assed Bears' teams. And Dick Butkis and Tommy Nobis and Sonny Jurgensen and Charlie Taylor and Archie Manning and Lem Barney ...

As long as anyone has to resort to convoluted stats to bolster a player's reputation, the chances are that the player isn't anywhere near great - - yet.

[SmootSmack]

I can't say I really understood that Barry Sanders analogy but anyway....

There are two parts to the original question; Who is better now, and who will be better in the future? And what I believe Ramseyfan is getting at, is that right now Ed Reed is better. However, when you look at Taylor and Reed in similar points in their careers (after one season) Taylor has the potential to be a much more dominant safety in the long run.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I'm actually going to agree with SC on this one on most of his points. I think he's supporting some claims in the way that only he can.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Ramseyfan:

No one - not I nor anyone else here - was trying to compare Gardner's athetic skills with Sean Taylors. Only you brought that into the disucssion so let me say that you have discoverd the obvious. Sean Taylor is far more athletic than Rod Gardner. That and four bucks will get you a latte at Starbucks. The analogy goes like this:

Taylor is a stud; he is a better "athlete" than Ed Reed; Reed has accomplished ten miles more on the field than Taylor has; Reed has shown that he is a great player; Taylor has not yet shown that. THEREFORE, comparing the two of them is premature at best and silly at worst.

Gardner is a stud; he is a better "athlete" than Art Monk; MOnk accomplished ten miles more on the field than Gardner has; Mond showed he was a great player; Garnder has not yet shown that. THEREFORE, comparing the two of them would be ridiculous at this point.

Ed Reed didn't come on until last season? I think there are a whole bunch of offensive coordinators in the NFL who might raise an eyebrow at that statement. Reed has continued to get better throughout his career, but he was hardly a stiff in prior years.

I've said this before too. Greatness in a team or a player is usually self-evident. Great teams point to their records and go on about their business; great players - even when stuck on bad teams demonstrate their greatness without fans having to concoct measures for them where they stand out.

Again let me use an analogy. Barry Sanders was a great player; he played on bad teams most of his career. When people talk about Barry Sanders, they don't have to manufacture yardsicks for him to surpass such as "defensed more passes than Shawn Springs". They don't compare his "rookie stats" with other players. They acknowledge his greatness because of everything he accomplished on the field. Same with Walter Payton playing for a whole bunch of sorry-assed Bears' teams. And Dick Butkis and Tommy Nobis and Sonny Jurgensen and Charlie Taylor and Archie Manning and Lem Barney ...

As long as anyone has to resort to convoluted stats to bolster a player's reputation, the chances are that the player isn't anywhere near great - - yet.

First, okay, I know understand your analogy a bit better and don't have as much beef with it. But, I still think the analogy doesn't exactly work. The comparison of Taylor to Reed is indeed premature (as I've previously noted), but it's by no means silly.

Second, when I said Reed didn't "come on" until "last season," I actually meant the 2003 season. He's been a stud since he entered the league, but it's only been in the past two seasons that he has been considered one of the top 5 players in the league. He wasn't the Ed Reed of 2004 in his rookie season and I wholeheartedly expect Taylor to make similar leaps.

Third, I'm not sure why you've been so insistent on focusing on how I noted that Taylor had more passes defensed than Springs. That was one of many of ST's stats I cited (i.e. Taylor had 6 turnovers as a rookie in fewer starts than Reed).

Fourth, how exactly are Taylor's stats convoluted? They are what they are.
Please don't refer to the passes defensed stat again....again, it was one of several ST stats I cited.

If what you are saying is that comparing Taylor to Reed is premature, as I noted earlier, I can agree with that. But, I suspect (perhaps erroneously) that you don't think Taylor's play is EVER going to match his potential. I disagree with that notion (if that is indeed what you are saying).