Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by saden1

I'm glad you got where you are by working hard but I bet you if you think for a moment you can name 3 crucial events or opportunities in your life you can attribute your success to.

While I can easily name 3 "forks in the road", I can name more than that too. However, each time I didn't always know it was a fork. I relied on my wisdom and sometimes prayer, and intelligence, and knowledge of the bible to guide me to the right side of the fork. Also, if you make the wrong decision, then go back. It's VERY rare that a decision you make is soooo bad that it ruins your life and you can't go back. There are some like murder etc, but those are so obviously bad that you're not very smart. I have made just as many good choices as bad choices, but the key is, I rectify the poor choices. I don't dwell on them, I change them. (through hard work and dedication)
On the flip side, you can give me ANY scenario (as long as I can ask questions about it) and I can tell you where they failed along the way. I know that sounds arrogant, but we have become a country so focused on the negatives, you then use your negativity to make decisions. It's like when you jump in the water and you see a shark, the first thing you will do is tense up and not move. That's what people do when they make a poor decision in life. They freeze, then they never get mobile again cause they are too worried about making another choice. (thus negativity takes over)
Every person that is homeless, or in the gutter made some poor choices that led to that. Every person in jail made poor choices that led to that as well. Every person that is dirt poor made very poor decisions to be that way.
Now I'm not saying that an unfortunate event couldn't happen out of the blue...they happen. But how do you handle it?
Do I feel bad when a tornado takes out a trailer park in Oklahoma? Not really. They knew the risks of living there...it was their choice. If you noticed when someone asked me why I wanted to move to Denver, I made many reasons, but one of them is "no natural disasters happen there". Those that make conscious decisions to reduce risk and maximize opportunity become successful. Again I feel compelled to say that bad things can and do happen. A tornado could hit Aurora,CO right now...would I feel for the people there...YES. That would be an anomoly. Do I feel bad for the people that perished in the 9/11 attacks...absolutely. They went to work one day trying to get ahead in life, or survive in life and they had no way of knowing that crazy people would fly into them and kill them. Had they known and stayed, then they would be stupid. You are who you are and you're at where you're at in life 100% because of your choices. Sorry I believe that whole heartedly.
I do recommend you read or watch "the secret". They actually say the same thing. I had already believed it before I read it, but it solidified my belief. Stop focusing on what has happened to you, and start focusing on what you want to happen to you.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I would say that most people are willing to give a helping hand to people willing to help themself. I have belong to several organizations which help in the comunity and I see so many people who are willing to receive help but are totaly unwilling to help themself. The group I belong to now has a very,very tough time finding people who are not just looking for a hand out rather than a helping hand.

Absolutely agree with that!

originally quoted by matty:

Regardless of how or why it happens, do they still not deserve a helping hand? I guess the prevailing opinion would be they don't, considering how we treat our sick, elderly, mentally ill, and homeless in this country.

I'm going to break this down cause you mentioned a lot of different scenarios.
1- "the sick". Depends on how they got sick. Did they get sick because they were having unprotected sex and didn't care? If so, then tough crap. If they got sick from just living life, then yes, I care.
2- "the Elderly." You probably wouldn't expect this from me cause you guys don't understand where I'm coming from, but you can't help but get old, and I firmly believe that the money we waste on the unwed mothers plopping out babies should go to the elderly that really can't help themselves. I donate, and offer my time to the local nursing home...shock eh? Because they actually can't help themselves when they are that old.
3- "The mentally ill". See above.
4- "The homeless". I can not think of a scenario where a homeless person didn't do that to themselves by making piss poor decisions, then getting a "poor me" attitude. They are there because of them, no one else. Self responsibility people.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Did anyone else catch his debate with Sanjay Gupta on Larry King Live tonight?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Did anyone else catch his debate with Sanjay Gupta on Larry King Live tonight?

No, how did it go?

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by jsarno

4- "The homeless". I can not think of a scenario where a homeless person didn't do that to themselves by making piss poor decisions, then getting a "poor me" attitude. They are there because of them, no one else. Self responsibility people.

The only scenario about "the homeless" that I can think of is the veitnam vets that got messed up in the head over in veitnam and then came home and our goverment pretty much turned its back on them...

But other wise I agree, most homeless people either had piss poor upbringing or made piss poor choices in life...

I remember my only trip to New York city, there were people getting on the subway's begging for money. I would not give them nothing and this one homeless guy started to harrass me about it. He was saying stuff like "What? You think your better than me? Why can't you give me any money? You're no better than me..." I didn't give him any money but that was pretty damn arrogant for him or any homeless person just to expect people to give them money...

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

No, how did it go?

I only saw the last few seconds and am hoping someone else can fill me in.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

The only scenario about "the homeless" that I can think of is the veitnam vets that got messed up in the head over in veitnam and then came home and our goverment pretty much turned its back on them...

Well, while I would like to initially agree, I have a couple comments to ponder. 1- Are they mentally ill now? If so, they need to go into another catagory, and like I already said, I agree with helping them. 2- Why is it the soilders from WW1 and WW2 didn't have the same issues, yet they saw some pretty graphic images? WHat made 1 generation be able to take it (or surpress it) and the other generation got all messed up?

But other wise I agree, most homeless people either had piss poor upbringing or made piss poor choices in life...

Thanks man...I feel like I'm on an island out here.

I remember my only trip to New York city, there were people getting on the subway's begging for money. I would not give them nothing and this one homeless guy started to harrass me about it. He was saying stuff like "What? You think your better than me? Why can't you give me any money? You're no better than me..." I didn't give him any money but that was pretty damn arrogant for him or any homeless person just to expect people to give them money...

You can thank all those idiots that give to them regularly. It's like if you feed a stray dog on your front porch, he will continue to come back, and if you continue to feed him, he will expect it.

I have a story that just happened about 1 month ago. My wife was coming out of wal mart, and a homeless person was on the corner with a sign that said "will work for food". She rolled down the window and said "my lawn needs to be mowed if your interested", (I am very allergic to something in the grass here) he actually said F.U. to her. When I got word of this, I was livid, I drove down there and saw that he had a dog too. I went into wal mart and bought a small bag of dog food. I went up to the homeless person and gave it to him. He asked "what the hell is this"? I said "it's food for your dog, and since you're not willing to work, you can share it with him too." He muttered something, and I said, "maybe next time you should actually do what your sign says and mow a lawn." I drove away to him giving me the finger. But at least the dog won't go hungry.

[SmootSmack]

Michael Moore, Dr. Gupta square off over 'Sicko' - CNN.com

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Michael Moore, Dr. Gupta square off over 'Sicko' - CNN.com

Thanks SS.

On a related note, does anyone know how many people work in the health care insurance industry? I'm just curious because I wonder what sort of economic ramifications a universal health care system would have on the overall economy.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Well, while I would like to initially agree, I have a couple comments to ponder. 1- Are they mentally ill now? If so, they need to go into another catagory, and like I already said, I agree with helping them. 2- Why is it the soilders from WW1 and WW2 didn't have the same issues, yet they saw some pretty graphic images? WHat made 1 generation be able to take it (or surpress it) and the other generation got all messed up?

To answer your second question, I think that WWI and WWII were totally different types of wars compared to the Vietnam "Conflict". When our troops came home from WWI and WWII they were reguarded as HERO's. And as you know, in WWII we were attacked so that war meant alittle more to the people and troops than the Vietnam war/"conflict." When our troops came home from Vietnam they were spit on, protested against, and labled "baby killers." To me that is night and day when you are talking about the attidude that the troops had to come home too.

Also, alot of the Vietnam troops got "boned" by our goverment when they tried to get "war time" benifits. They were told that they were not in a war, but that they were in a "conflict." I am sure that had to weigh heavy on some of the men's minds. On top of all of this, the day after the US leaves Vietnam, North Vietnam takes over anyhow. So the whole thing was done for nothing, atleast I am sure that is what some of the men felt like, they didn't win.

In conclusion, WWI and WWII troops came home to parade, a socity with its arms opened, and were called HERO's. When Vietnam vets came home they came home to a COUNTRY that turned its back on them, people protesting against them, and being called baby killers. There are some that over came that adversity but that is a lot to over come for the most part. Think about it for a minute, think what it must have ben like to be 18, a US soldier, and be stuck in Vietnam. On top of that if you got to go to a Vietnam town, you never knew truely who the enemy was. It could be the guy next to you at the bar, it could be a little boy on the corner shinning shoes, or even woman walking down the street. I am sure that the men of WWI and WWII saw horrific imagies, but atleat they knew who the enemy was and why they were fighting, not so much can be said for our Vietnam troops...

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Well, while I would like to initially agree, I have a couple comments to ponder. 1- Are they mentally ill now? If so, they need to go into another catagory, and like I already said, I agree with helping them. 2- Why is it the soilders from WW1 and WW2 didn't have the same issues, yet they saw some pretty graphic images? WHat made 1 generation be able to take it (or surpress it) and the other generation got all messed up?

To add to what 8588 said. You also have to think of the era. Durin the time periods of WWI and WWII it was not "manly to talk about stuff like that" Not that they didnt have the same issues, but just like a boy thinks that it is not ok to cry, it wasnt ok to address mental issues. Add to that the fact that the military started experimenting all sorts of different drugs on US soldiers during Vietnam, Desert Storm and Enduring @ Iraqi Freedom. Also from a medical standpoint pshchology was not as practiced then as it is now.

To sum it up, all war Vets experienced it in every war. Light just wasnt always shed on the matter.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Thanks SS.

On a related note, does anyone know how many people work in the health care insurance industry? I'm just curious because I wonder what sort of economic ramifications a universal health care system would have on the overall economy.

Well healthcare spedning accounts for 1/9 of our national GDP I believe. So anything that effects that machinations of it could dramatically change our economy. For the good or bad. We're talking serious economy changes.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I have a story that just happened about 1 month ago. My wife was coming out of wal mart, and a homeless person was on the corner with a sign that said "will work for food". She rolled down the window and said "my lawn needs to be mowed if your interested", (I am very allergic to something in the grass here) he actually said F.U. to her. When I got word of this, I was livid, I drove down there and saw that he had a dog too. I went into wal mart and bought a small bag of dog food. I went up to the homeless person and gave it to him. He asked "what the hell is this"? I said "it's food for your dog, and since you're not willing to work, you can share it with him too." He muttered something, and I said, "maybe next time you should actually do what your sign says and mow a lawn." I drove away to him giving me the finger. But at least the dog won't go hungry.

Damn... that's a dick-move.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but to go to that length to retaliate is pretty childish if you ask me.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Damn... that's a dick-move.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but to go to that length to retaliate is pretty childish if you ask me.

Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.

[MTK]

Don't help the guy...hell don't even give him the time of day. But I fail to see what a childish retaliation like that accomplishes. Somehow I don't think tough love is going to change most people like that.