Fake WR screen

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I like othesr have thought that it was pretty much all on our O Line but after watching the reduced replay of the Dallas/Giants game I'm now not so sure. My point. Both Dallas and the Giants O lines had a very tough time giving their QB's time to make plays and I think both O lines gave up more sacks then we did when we played against them. What I noticed is that Dallas adjusted to the rush by their play calling and found a way to move the ball. The Giants did not adjust so they lost. My point is that it seems that we never did do a good job of adjusting to what the other teams D was giving us when trying to preasur the QB.

No doubt. I mean, at Balt, it took us til 2 minutes left in the second to throw a checkdown. Almost a whole half, to beat a blitz. This isn't reinventing the wheel here. We didn't stop it so Balt kept doing it. Why don't teams blitz all the time? For knowledge that coaches will adjust to it and make a big play. We either haven't adjusted for it, have executed the adjustment, or don't have the personel (QB, RB, Hot Read WR's) to adjust to it.

And yes, for those that want to put it all on the oline, i think they devaluing our line play. Yes, they've had some bad games, but good playcalling and QB execution will overcome some mediocre line play. Pitts, Indi, Dal are a few of the top teams that have had horrendous line play this year. Worse than ours.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by redsk1

No doubt. I mean, at Balt, it took us til 2 minutes left in the second to throw a checkdown. Almost a whole half, to beat a blitz. This isn't reinventing the wheel here. We didn't stop it so Balt kept doing it. Why don't teams blitz all the time? For knowledge that coaches will adjust to it and make a big play. We either haven't adjusted for it, have executed the adjustment, or don't have the personel (QB, RB, Hot Read WR's) to adjust to it.

And yes, for those that want to put it all on the oline, i think they devaluing our line play. Yes, they've had some bad games, but good playcalling and QB execution will overcome some mediocre line play. Pitts, Indi, Dal are a few of the top teams that have had horrendous line play this year. Worse than ours.

Our line didn't look as bad as it could because Zorn went to great lengths too protect them. As the offensive line play declined Zorn called more and more 3 step drop passes and now it seems like that's all we do hitches, quick outs and screens.

I seriously doubt that many people would agree with you that Indi and Dal have worse offensive line play then we do.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by redsk1

No doubt. I mean, at Balt, it took us til 2 minutes left in the second to throw a checkdown. Almost a whole half, to beat a blitz. This isn't reinventing the wheel here. We didn't stop it so Balt kept doing it. Why don't teams blitz all the time? For knowledge that coaches will adjust to it and make a big play. We either haven't adjusted for it, have executed the adjustment, or don't have the personel (QB, RB, Hot Read WR's) to adjust to it.

And yes, for those that want to put it all on the oline, i think they devaluing our line play. Yes, they've had some bad games, but good playcalling and QB execution will overcome some mediocre line play. Pitts, Indi, Dal are a few of the top teams that have had horrendous line play this year. Worse than ours.

Great post. Count Blache out of that group.

The OL takes too much of it. Through the Seattle game, they were opening holes for the running game, and keeping us above float. The problems were starting to form before they declined to current levels.

We still need to address the unit, obviously. But our issues go far deeper than our OL not being competitive.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Great post. Count Blache out of that group.

The OL takes too much of it. Through the Seattle game, they were opening holes for the running game, and keeping us above float. The problems were starting to form before they declined to current levels.

We still need to address the unit, obviously. But our issues go far deeper than our OL not being competitive.

The speculation remains endless as to who/what is at fault for the collapse this year and there is plenty of blame to go around.
When trying to correct any "process" or problem where multiple breakdowns may exist, note the following. It is done on a "worst first" basis.
While it is true, better QB play and other component play would have relieved some of the symtoms resulting in a better end result, the problem remains. Our O-line was run-over most of the year, and must be addressed. When that is fixed, what is the next "worst" problem. When the known problems have been addressed, see how they affect the "suspected" problems, and adjust accordingly.
In principle.............simple
And this is what we must do

[30gut]

QB coach/Offensive Assistant:

Pat Shurmur
Quarterbacks Coach


One of the rising stars in the NFL's coaching ranks, Pat Shurmur is in his seventh season as the Eagles quarterbacks coach and his tenth as a member of Andy Reid's staff.........

Philadelphia Eagles

[bigm29]

yeah we need more plays than just gut,power,screen,throw away, and sack. Why is it so hard for the coaches. say what you want about the system but what it comes down to is football

[30gut]

Originally Posted by bigm29

yeah we need more plays than just gut,power,screen,throw away, and sack. Why is it so hard for the coaches. say what you want about the system but what it comes down to is football

The system works, but it would be easier to install and adjust it if Zorn had more coaches that know it like:


Jeremy Bates
Quarterbacks / + (Assistant Offensive Coordinator?)

Jeremy Bates enters his third season on the Denver Broncos’ coaching staff in 2008 and serves as the club’s quarterbacks coach. Bates, who was Denver’s wide receivers/quarterbacks coach last season, owns six years of coaching experience in the NFL and worked with the New York Jets (2005) and Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2002-04) before joining the Broncos in 2006.

DenverBroncos.com – Official Website Of The Denver Broncos

-------------------------------------- and

Frank Pollack
Assistant Offensive Line Coach
2nd NFL season
2nd with Texans

Frank Pollack is in his second year as the Texans assistant offensive line coach. Pollack will continue to work closely with offensive line coach John Benton to mold the Texans front five.

Coach - Houston Texans

-------------------------------------- or

Tom Clements
Quarterbacks /+ (Assistant Offensive Coordinator ?)

Tom Clements, entering his 16th season in the coaching profession, is in his third year as Green Bay's quarterbacks coach.

Now in his 12th overall NFL season, Clements was named to his position Jan. 29, 2006, by Head Coach Mike McCarthy. Familiar with the role, Clements also served as quarterbacks coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers (2001-03), Kansas City Chiefs (2000) and New Orleans Saints (1997-99).

Last year, Clements oversaw a near-MVP season from Brett Favre in what turned out to be the quarterback's final year. Favre surpassed 4,000 yards passing for the fifth time and posted a career-best completion percentage of 66.5 and a QB rating of 95.7 that was his third-best in leading the Packers back to the playoffs.

Packers.com » Team » Coaches » Tom Clements

---------------------------------------- and

Ty Knott
Offensive Quality Control / Offensive Assistant WR Coach?

Entering his seventh season in the NFL, Ty Knott begins his third with the Green Bay Packers as offensive quality control coach.
In his current role, Knott primarily assists wide receivers coach Jimmy Robinson. His duties include breaking down opponent game film, drawing playbooks and analyzing defensive tendencies.

Packers.com » Team » Coaches » Ty Knott

[SBXVII]

30gut, If your suggesting a few new adjustments to the coaching staff then it might work. Considering we kept most of the non WCO coach's which were Gibbs non WCO coach's then ok. If Snyder is planning on keeping Zorn he needs more help with coaching his system.

.....but I still have issues with his lack of being able to adjust both during games and during the season.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

....but I still have issues with his lack of being able to adjust both during games and during the season.

Another set of eyes, eyes that see things in the same football language as Zorn should help with the adjustments. I'm hoping to see at least 2 WCO offense coaches added to the staff. A QB coach and an offensive assistant, someone that can help Sherman Smith.

[Beemnseven]

I don't think we can discount the fact that Jason Campbell may not be suited for the WCO. Gibbs drafted him for his strong arm and deep throwing abilities downfield.

If the WCO is all about the QB making quick decisions, yet we all criticize him for checking down too quickly, then that's a dilemma. They say this system takes a while to learn. And it may be that it'll take every bit of two full years or more for Campbell to get this offense down pat.

Then there's the question of Jim Zorn's abilities as a tactician, a gameplanner, his instincts for in-game adjustments, and his knack for playcalling. Not of which are solid, and are testament to the fact that Zorn is still learning the basic in's and out's of this job.

That's why I really wonder if Vinny and Danny truly understood the magnitude of bringing in Jim Zorn and implementing this system. It doesn't look like this was the design of people who believe we are just one step away from greatness, and who operate with a 'win now right now' philosophy.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I don't think we can discount the fact that Jason Campbell may not be suited for the WCO. Gibbs drafted him for his strong arm and deep throwing abilities downfield.

If the WCO is all about the QB making quick decisions, yet we all criticize him for checking down too quickly, then that's a dilemma. They say this system takes a while to learn. And it may be that it'll take every bit of two full years or more for Campbell to get this offense down pat.

Then there's the question of Jim Zorn's abilities as a tactician, a gameplanner, his instincts for in-game adjustments, and his knack for playcalling. Not of which are solid, and are testament to the fact that Zorn is still learning the basic in's and out's of this job.

That's why I really wonder if Vinny and Danny truly understood the magnitude of bringing in Jim Zorn and implementing this system. It doesn't look like this was the design of people who believe we are just one step away from greatness, and who operate with a 'win now right now' philosophy.

Well maybe bringing in Zorn, and investing heavily in the draft rather than free agency means they are no longer operating under a "win now right now" philosophy?

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I don't think we can discount the fact that Jason Campbell may not be suited for the WCO. Gibbs drafted him for his strong arm and deep throwing abilities downfield.

I don't really understand which part of the OP or thread you are replying to...but i appreciate your addition to the thread

Why isn't JC a good fit for the WCO?
The only people i've heard say anything of the sort are bloggers and non-football savvy media types.
Zorn (who just so happens to now a thing or two about grooming a QB) really seems to like JC.
-Also having a strong arm and the ability to throw deep doesn't preclude a QB from being good at the WCO: Farve, McNabb, Cutler, Rodgers etc...

If the WCO is all about the QB making quick decisions, yet we all criticize him for checking down too quickly, then that's a dilemma. They say this system takes a while to learn. And it may be that it'll take every bit of two full years or more for Campbell to get this offense down pat.

Again who is this 'we' that criticizes JC for checking down to early?

Holmgren has said that it takes 3 years to master the WCO, and JC in his 1st year in the WCO is ahead of where other 1st year WCO QBs have typically been.

Then there's the question of Jim Zorn's abilities as a tactician, a gameplanner, his instincts for in-game adjustments, and his knack for playcalling. Not of which are solid, and are testament to the fact that Zorn is still learning the basic in's and out's of this job.

No doubt that Zorn is learning.
But, if you look at the offense during the 6-2 stretch many were praising Zorn's offense and ESPN Jaw's was considering JC as a league MVP candidate.

The point i was trying to make in the OP is that Zorn needs help.

He's basically installing the WCO by himself without a QB coach, without an experienced WCO OC, w/o WCO WR coach, w/o WCO Offensive line coach, w/o any WCO assistants.

During the off-season (OTA/training camp) Zorn had much more time to design and install the successful offense that we all enjoyed during the early season. The 6-2 start IMO is proof that Zorn knows how to design an effective offense and call plays.

But, as the season progressed teams adjusted to Zorn's offense and offensive line play declined.
And IMO during the hustle and grind of the regular season Zorn may not have seen where adjustments were needed without another coach knowledge in the WCO to make suggestions.
And even if Zorn did want to make adjustments it would likely be quite difficult for the HC himself to make the changes to the offense w/o help from other coaches knowledgeable in the system.

That's why I really wonder if Vinny and Danny truly understood the magnitude of bringing in Jim Zorn and implementing this system. It doesn't look like this was the design of people who believe we are just one step away from greatness, and who operate with a 'win now right now' philosophy.

I figure(assume) that Vinnie understands that installing the WCO is not a quick fix. Afterall Vinnie did spend some time with the 49ers during their run.
And from last years draft and Vinnie's recent statements building through the draft i hope the days of 'quick fix football' are over.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well maybe bringing in Zorn, and investing heavily in the draft rather than free agency means they are no longer operating under a "win now right now" philosophy?

They've already parted with 3 draft picks for free agent defensive ends who collectively have given us 3.5 sacks. They had the right idea for the '08 draft. But with the season turning the way it has, will they have the same type of fortitude for '09? We're down to 4 picks as it is. I guess we'll see.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

They've already parted with 3 draft picks for free agent defensive ends who collectively have given us 3.5 sacks. They had the right idea for the '08 draft. But with the season turning the way it has, will they have the same type of fortitude for '09? We're down to 4 picks as it is. I guess we'll see.

Well, I think we're going to be a bit more aggressive in free agency than we were last year. I think you'll see two to three "big" signings" and we're going to be adding draft picks as well. I think we'll have maybe 7 picks.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well, I think we're going to be a bit more aggressive in free agency than we were last year. I think you'll see two to three "big" signings" and we're going to be adding draft picks as well. I think we'll have maybe 7 picks.

Is that going to be a better possibility since the 2010 season might be uncapped?

Also, don't you think Snyder truly believes we are just a few pieces away from a deep playoff run? That we're almost there?