Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Skinsfanmania

Elway played in five super bowls and won two of them. The three super bowls they lost the only reason they got there was because of Elway, because they really weren't that good of a team.

Look at Elway in his prime while he was winning super bowls, vs. Favre during the same time in his prime. Elway won two MVPs.

Favre is not in the top 10 in my book.

Please see my other posts sir.
1- Elway has 1 MVP (not two), Favre has 3.
2- Other than the super bowls (which is an indicator of a good team, and I already pointed out that Elway had very good defenses during his tenure) Favre beats him in every thing, including all pro's.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Please see my other posts sir.
1- Elway has 1 MVP (not two), Favre has 3.
2- Other than the super bowls (which is an indicator of a good team, and I already pointed out that Elway had very good defenses during his tenure) Favre beats him in every thing, including all pro's.

A defence that gives up 39 , 42 and 55 points in the Super Bowl is " very good " ? What would you consider bad , 72 pts per game ? Favre didn't have a defence , R. White , Jones , Joyner Koonce , ,newsome , Anderson . What about the OL that Elway played behind his first 6/7 years , he ran for his life ,,, like our qb's did under Spurrier . As great as they both were , Elway did not blow big games , Favre did a couple of times . Elway got to 5 SB's Favre 2 . Favre had a chance to win the game against Denver and threw a low pass behind his TE.GB was a 13 pt favorite going into that game , GB had more talent than Denver .I would bet most CB's hated to face either one . If you go by stats / passer ratings Bulger,Culpepper and Pennington are 5 - 7 all time . Stats only tell a little bit of the story . I know you put up some nice stats , take a minute to look at the # Elway put up Under Shannahan compared to his early years . Favre's # are not as impressive after Holmgren left . MVP/Pro Bowls are votes , football is not skating , winning is what counts , no points for looking pretty .

[GTripp0012]

Somewhere between #5 and #9 all time, I would say.

I wouldn't rank him above Steve Young, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, or Roger Staubach, and then you would at least have to consider Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, and Bart Starr right in there depending on how you value their era-dominant performances against the fact that they may not have stood out if they played in the modern era. Also, Jim Kelly to me is right there, neck and neck with Favre, and it'd be tough to pick one over the other.

I also think Peyton Manning will finish his career above Favre on my all-time list, and Tom Brady very well might also.

[GTripp0012]

This has nothing to do with Favre, but I thought it would just be something to chew on regarding Elway, when compared to another player who shared a similar prime career era.

John Elway, career:

Yards/Attempt: 7.08
Comp% 56.9
TD%: 4.1
Int %: 3.1

Mystery Player, career:

Yards/Attempt: 6.92
Comp%: 59.6
TD%: 4.0%
Int%: 2.3%

Here's the peak year performance for Elway, and mystery player:

John Elway, 93, 97, 98:

Comp%: 60.2%
Yards/Attempt: 7.23

Mystery Player, 96, 97, 99:

Comp%: 61.1%
Yards/Attempt: 7.47

So this mystery player from the 90's was far less likely to hurt his team with a turnover, and gave similar offensive production with far less fanfare. So who is the mystery player? Steve Young? Troy Aikman? Dan Marino?

The mystery player in this case, is Mark Allen Brunell.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This has nothing to do with Favre, but I thought it would just be something to chew on regarding Elway, when compared to another player who shared a similar prime career era.

John Elway, career:

Yards/Attempt: 7.08
Comp% 56.9
TD%: 4.1
Int %: 3.1

Mystery Player, career:

Yards/Attempt: 6.92
Comp%: 59.6
TD%: 4.0%
Int%: 2.3%

Here's the peak year performance for Elway, and mystery player:

John Elway, 93, 97, 98:

Comp%: 60.2%
Yards/Attempt: 7.23

Mystery Player, 96, 97, 99:

Comp%: 61.1%
Yards/Attempt: 7.47

So this mystery player from the 90's was far less likely to hurt his team with a turnover, and gave similar offensive production with far less fanfare. So who is the mystery player? Steve Young? Troy Aikman? Dan Marino?

The mystery player in this case, is Mark Allen Brunell.

Outstanding post. I usually catch the stats and recognize the player right away, but this one surprised me. Great way to use stats to prove your point.

[rypper11]

Even with the records, I think Favre's best attribute isn't measurable. Guys seemed to try harder when he was on the field and Favre just never quit.
It's nearly impossible to rate guys from different eras, but look at what they meant to the sport when they played. Baugh and Graham both revolutionized the position during their eras. Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas both could throw for 6000 yds under todays rules. IMO, you have those 4, and then a cluster of 10 or so that would include Favre. Though he's my favorite to watch.

[budw38]

Elway , Montana , Bradshaw, Staubach , Marino , Manning , Favre . Elway and Marino never had great defences , and usually played with no running game . Had Elway or Marino started in DC with Gibbs in 83 ,,, we would have won 5 Super Bowls . Brady , Graham , Sonny J. as well as a few others could make a case for top 10 . I never saw Unitas or Namath , and Tarkenten would get some consideration had he been on a championship winner . I started watching the Skins in 72' , in all those years , Elway and Marino were the only two that I witnessed win with very little around them . For those of you whe are young , many of the " losses " that they had , they put up 30 , 40 and 50 pts in many of those games that they " lost " .

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by budw38

Elway and Marino never had great defences

Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.

and usually played with no running game

That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.



That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.

Elway played 17 years , and his last two years he had T. Davis ,, most of his career , he had little in teamrs of a running game . Most of there running yds were draw plays . I think the Def. numbers looked good , because the AFC was not as strong in the 80's .We witnessed the denver D in the early SB's ; P Simms , 22 of 25 , The Skins 35 pts in one qtr < 600yds > , and the 49ers scored 55 pts .... not a strong defence . True , Favre never had HOF wr's and rb's , I just never saw were Elway and Marino had as much as most of our HOF Qb's . All of these guys were amazing , I would have loved for any of them to be wearing the Burgandy and Gold . Nice work on the stats .

[coggs]

Originally Posted by budw38

Elway played 17 years , and his last two years he had T. Davis ,, most of his career , he had little in teamrs of a running game . Most of there running yds were draw plays . I think the Def. numbers looked good , because the AFC was not as strong in the 80's .We witnessed the denver D in the early SB's ; P Simms , 22 of 25 , The Skins 35 pts in one qtr < 600yds > , and the 49ers scored 55 pts .... not a strong defence . True , Favre never had HOF wr's and rb's , I just never saw were Elway and Marino had as much as most of our HOF Qb's . All of these guys were amazing , I would have loved for any of them to be wearing the Burgandy and Gold . Nice work on the stats .

I was at football camp in the summer of 91 and 92. A bunch of NFL'ers there such as Lott, Cornelius Bennet, Bruce Smith, LT (real LT), Leonard Marshall, Jim Lachey. In the evenings they gave speeches and did Q & A's. They all said Elway was the best QB in the NFL. I will qualify that by saying that Lott was asked, "If you can't choose Montana, who would say is the best QB in the league?"

[budw38]

Originally Posted by coggs

I was at football camp in the summer of 91 and 92. A bunch of NFL'ers there such as Lott, Cornelius Bennet, Bruce Smith, LT (real LT), Leonard Marshall, Jim Lachey. In the evenings they gave speeches and did Q & A's. They all said Elway was the best QB in the NFL. I will qualify that by saying that Lott was asked, "If you can't choose Montana, who would say is the best QB in the league?"

I would trust the men who played against them than as opposed to stats . Some of my friends asked Richie Petibon that question as well < he owned a resteraunt in FC , Va.> .... he answered ,Staubach, Montana , Elway , Marino and Joe Theismann . Had Gibbs been hired after Allen left ,, # 7 might be in this thread .

[dmek25]

i would be hard pressed to find that many qbacks better then Favre. to me, no way Peyton Manning is better. maybe Montana. its really hard to judge the old school guys. they were all tough as nails, considering the amount of punishment they had to take, often after the ball was released. on top of that, they also had to call their own plays. guys like Baugh playing both ways. to me, Marino was nothing more then pistol pete, passing 40-50 times a game, to inflate his stats. in my eyes, it was always about him, not the dolphins.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i would be hard pressed to find that many qbacks better then Favre. to me, no way Peyton Manning is better. maybe Montana. its really hard to judge the old school guys. they were all tough as nails, considering the amount of punishment they had to take, often after the ball was released. on top of that, they also had to call their own plays. guys like Baugh playing both ways. to me, Marino was nothing more then pistol pete, passing 40-50 times a game, to inflate his stats. in my eyes, it was always about him, not the dolphins.

Are you asserting that:

1) Marino called his own plays?

and

2) He was more worried about playing from behind to inflate his numbers than winning?

Maybe I'm confused on what you are saying here, but I think you'll have a hell of a time doing anything to substanciate either of those claims. I have never heard anyone argue before that better production somehow was counter-productive to winning.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i would be hard pressed to find that many qbacks better then Favre. to me, no way Peyton Manning is better. maybe Montana. its really hard to judge the old school guys. they were all tough as nails, considering the amount of punishment they had to take, often after the ball was released. on top of that, they also had to call their own plays. guys like Baugh playing both ways. to me, Marino was nothing more then pistol pete, passing 40-50 times a game, to inflate his stats. in my eyes, it was always about him, not the dolphins.

Marino is pistol Pete ,, and Favre ISN'T a " gunslinger " ? How many times did Marino throw up a duck and cost his team a playoff game ? I have no problem with anyone putting Favre at or near the top , but the Elway and Marino are overrated crowd ,, stunning ?

[hagams]

IMO, it's a toss up between him and Marino. I'm kinda young, so guys before my time I can't really say much about. But when you take into consideration the type of guy he is, and his off-field accomplishments he's got to be in the FAV 5.