Now that Favre is officially done, where does he rank all time?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by budw38

Elway and Marino never had great defences

Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.

and usually played with no running game

That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Umm what? Elway had a top ten D 8 times:

1998- 8th
1997- 6th
1996- 7th
1991- 3rd
1989- 1st
1987- 7th
1984- 2nd
1983- 9th

Actually, everyone knows about the offense and during Elway's tenure the average rank of the offense was 9.5. The average rank of the defense was 11.56. Not a whole lot different.

You have more of a point with Marino who had a top ten denfense only 4 times:
1998- 1st
1990- 4th
1984- 7th
1983- 1st

ps- Favre only had a top 10 D 7 times during his career.



That is fairly true, but it's not like Brett had a hall of fame running game either. Marino's sucked for the most part, but Elway won his super bowls when he had a couple AMAZING running game seasons. All his super bowls he had a good running game.

1998- Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 21 tds, 5.1 ypc (all lead the league)
1997- Terrell Davis, 1750 yards, 15 tds, 4.7 ypc (2nd in yards, 1st in tds, and 6th in ypc)
1989- Bobby Humphry, 1151 yards, 7 tds, all in only 12 starts. (8th in yards, and 7th in tds)
In 87 and 86, Winder was admittedly not impressive, however, the Broncos ranked in the top 10 in rushing td's both years. 87- 3rd, 86- 9th.

So as you can see, the misconception that Elway didn't have a defense or a running game is false.

Elway played 17 years , and his last two years he had T. Davis ,, most of his career , he had little in teamrs of a running game . Most of there running yds were draw plays . I think the Def. numbers looked good , because the AFC was not as strong in the 80's .We witnessed the denver D in the early SB's ; P Simms , 22 of 25 , The Skins 35 pts in one qtr < 600yds > , and the 49ers scored 55 pts .... not a strong defence . True , Favre never had HOF wr's and rb's , I just never saw were Elway and Marino had as much as most of our HOF Qb's . All of these guys were amazing , I would have loved for any of them to be wearing the Burgandy and Gold . Nice work on the stats .

[coggs]

Originally Posted by budw38

Elway played 17 years , and his last two years he had T. Davis ,, most of his career , he had little in teamrs of a running game . Most of there running yds were draw plays . I think the Def. numbers looked good , because the AFC was not as strong in the 80's .We witnessed the denver D in the early SB's ; P Simms , 22 of 25 , The Skins 35 pts in one qtr < 600yds > , and the 49ers scored 55 pts .... not a strong defence . True , Favre never had HOF wr's and rb's , I just never saw were Elway and Marino had as much as most of our HOF Qb's . All of these guys were amazing , I would have loved for any of them to be wearing the Burgandy and Gold . Nice work on the stats .

I was at football camp in the summer of 91 and 92. A bunch of NFL'ers there such as Lott, Cornelius Bennet, Bruce Smith, LT (real LT), Leonard Marshall, Jim Lachey. In the evenings they gave speeches and did Q & A's. They all said Elway was the best QB in the NFL. I will qualify that by saying that Lott was asked, "If you can't choose Montana, who would say is the best QB in the league?"

[budw38]

Originally Posted by coggs

I was at football camp in the summer of 91 and 92. A bunch of NFL'ers there such as Lott, Cornelius Bennet, Bruce Smith, LT (real LT), Leonard Marshall, Jim Lachey. In the evenings they gave speeches and did Q & A's. They all said Elway was the best QB in the NFL. I will qualify that by saying that Lott was asked, "If you can't choose Montana, who would say is the best QB in the league?"

I would trust the men who played against them than as opposed to stats . Some of my friends asked Richie Petibon that question as well < he owned a resteraunt in FC , Va.> .... he answered ,Staubach, Montana , Elway , Marino and Joe Theismann . Had Gibbs been hired after Allen left ,, # 7 might be in this thread .

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by budw38

I would trust the men who played against them than as opposed to stats . Some of my friends asked Richie Petibon that question as well < he owned a resteraunt in FC , Va.> .... he answered ,Staubach, Montana , Elway , Marino and Joe Theismann . Had Gibbs been hired after Allen left ,, # 7 might be in this thread .

I'll trust what actually happened--in the case of a inconsistency (which I should mention there usually isn't)--but to each their own.

Elway's body of work suggests that he wasn't a top ten passer of all time. Players who played against him are totally entited to form opinions based on their experiences, but it's still a limited viewpoint.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'll trust what actually happened--in the case of a inconsistency (which I should mention there usually isn't)--but to each their own.

Elway's body of work suggests that he wasn't a top ten passer of all time. Players who played against him are totally entited to form opinions based on their experiences, but it's still a limited viewpoint.

That might be true . Elway was also # 1 in a stat left out , sacked most times in a career < 516 > . Most of the qb's on this list had very solid teams , Elway went to a poor team . Elways td/int ratio improved as did his comp % his last 7 years ,,, maybe coaching < Shannahan> and a RB < Davis >. If you think stats are what make a player , Krieg , Testaverde would be top 10 . Kelly and Moon would be top 10 on td/ int ratio's and Comp % . The difference between Kelly / Moon as opposed to Montana and Elway , Montana and Elway played there best in the playoffs , Kelly and Moon played tight and threw picks . Favre threw 3 int's or more 5 times in the playoffs , lost playoff games at home to Seattle / Atlanta and NY . Can anyone in here name one playoff/Superbowl game were Montana , Marino or Elway blew a 14 pt lead , or threw 4-6 int's vs teams they should have beat ? I just go by what I witnessed over many years . Earl Campbell was the most dominant runner I have ever seen , 5 years from now he wont be 20th in yds/ career ,,, no way 20 rd's are better . B. Smith all time sack leader ,,,, LT was 10 times better pass rusher . One little trivia , what do Landry , Shula , Elway and P Manning have in common ? All of them were labled " Can't win the big one " ,,,, all will have a bust in Canton .

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by budw38

That might be true . Elway was also # 1 in a stat left out , sacked most times in a career < 516 > . Most of the qb's on this list had very solid teams , Elway went to a poor team . Elways td/int ratio improved as did his comp % his last 7 years ,,, maybe coaching < Shannahan> and a RB < Davis >. If you think stats are what make a player , Krieg , Testaverde would be top 10 . Kelly and Moon would be top 10 on td/ int ratio's and Comp % . The difference between Kelly / Moon as opposed to Montana and Elway , Montana and Elway played there best in the playoffs , Kelly and Moon played tight and threw picks . Favre threw 3 int's or more 5 times in the playoffs , lost playoff games at home to Seattle / Atlanta and NY . Can anyone in here name one playoff/Superbowl game were Montana , Marino or Elway blew a 14 pt lead , or threw 4-6 int's vs teams they should have beat ? I just go by what I witnessed over many years . Earl Campbell was the most dominant runner I have ever seen , 5 years from now he wont be 20th in yds/ career ,,, no way 20 rd's are better . B. Smith all time sack leader ,,,, LT was 10 times better pass rusher . One little trivia , what do Landry , Shula , Elway and P Manning have in common ? All of them were labled " Can't win the big one " ,,,, all will have a bust in Canton .

Yeah, well, "can't win the big one" is and has always been a misconception on the part of the guy making the assertion. There are a few buzz words in sports that when you hear them, an association is instantly made that the speaker is probably unknoledgable. "Choker" is probably the first and most telling one, but there are others.

I think it's great that pretty much all athletes that have donned the "choker" label have won a championship in their respective sports, and that people still value the concept.