lets discuss the free agents we really dont want and why!

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by munny

I don't mind seeing vick on the field... just not OUR field. The simple fact is that he is a quarterback that can't PASS.
Great athlete? check.
Big Arm? check?
Can hit the broad side of a barn? FAIL.
Can understand the playbook and scheme? FAIL

I disagree with your observations on these 2 areas.

First off, many of Vicks passes would hit recievers in the hands or the numbers and they wouldn't catch the ball.

Secondly, Vick much like our own JC had several offenses to learn over a short period of time. The one offense that he spent the most time in was a version of the WCO ran by Jim Mora Jr. He has had plenty of time to mull over the WCO. I'm sure he's got it.

While in the WCO Vick's only reliable target was Crumpler. The two of them thrived together. Crumpler was a Pro Bowler with Vick throwing to him. What has Crumpler done without Vick? I believe that if you give Vick some halfway decent recievers, then you have a sick offense both in the passing and the running game.

Now Vick might have some issues throwing to the smaller recievers like Moss just like JC does. They both need bigger targets to be successfull, but one is a dual threat and the other doesn't even know how to slide.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by Angry

I disagree with your observations on these 2 areas.

First off, many of Vicks passes would hit recievers in the hands or the numbers and they wouldn't catch the ball.

Secondly, Vick much like our own JC had several offenses to learn over a short period of time. The one offense that he spent the most time in was a version of the WCO ran by Jim Mora Jr. He has had plenty of time to mull over the WCO. I'm sure he's got it.

While in the WCO Vick's only reliable target was Crumpler. The two of them thrived together. Crumpler was a Pro Bowler with Vick throwing to him. What has Crumpler done without Vick? I believe that if you give Vick some halfway decent recievers, then you have a sick offense both in the passing and the running game.

Now Vick might have some issues throwing to the smaller recievers like Moss just like JC does. They both need bigger targets to be successfull, but one is a dual threat and the other doesn't even know how to slide.

Vick only learned two offenses during his NFL career and had ample time in each of them. The first one being Reeves system (which was really the best fit for him as it really went out of it's way to protect him) and the second one being the WCO under Mora along with Greg Knapp (Mora's OC friend which if some of you will remember was one of the main reasons Mora didn't take the Skins job as he would have had to have Zorn at OC instead of Knapp).

"He has had plenty of time to mull over the WCO. I'm sure he's got it."
You would think but keep in mind the guys never thrown over 57% percent and in the WCO thats a huge problem. In fact each year his completion percentage got worse for all three years he was in the WCO. In his final season he managed to complete only 52.6% of his passes.

I will concede Crumpler not doing much since Vick left but at the same time you have to look at Roddy White who the Falcons throught of as a bust untill the Redman/Harrington/Leftwich platoon showed that he could be a pro-bowl reciever. Ryan helped confirm that this past year.

Ironically if you look at the Falcons a lot of their problems in the closing of the Vick era was because they used so many resources to try and acquire passing targets for Vick that could have been used elsewhere (sound familiar). I'm pretty sure everyone here remembers the Perless Price fiasco and to top it off they used two first round picks on recievers thereafter because they kept on thinking that the problem was Vick didn't have people to throw to when the fact of the matter is the QB wasn't a very good passer.

[KLHJ2]

You would think but keep in mind the guys never thrown over 57% percent and in the WCO thats a huge problem.

I still Blame that on the recievind corps. They could not catch.

I will concede Crumpler not doing much since Vick left but at the same time you have to look at Roddy White who the Falcons throught of as a bust untill the Redman/Harrington/Leftwich platoon showed that he could be a pro-bowl reciever. Ryan helped confirm that this past year.

Imagine that... after 3 seasons Roddy White finally developed into a reciever! In past arguments on this site the majority of us here have come to the conclusion that 3 years is about how long it takes for a reciever to develop.

Ironically if you look at the Falcons a lot of their problems in the closing of the Vick era was because they used so many resources to try and acquire passing targets for Vick that could have been used elsewhere (sound familiar). I'm pretty sure everyone here remembers the Perless Price fiasco and to top it off they used two first round picks on recievers thereafter because they kept on thinking that the problem was Vick didn't have people to throw to when the fact of the matter is the QB wasn't a very good passer

Once again look at the game film. He hit them right in the hands. I lived in Georgia at 2 out of 3 of Vicks last years in ATL. I saw more of Vick and the Falcons than I wanted to. It discusted me. The only thing more sickening than watching Vick run wild was watching all of the dropped passes by his WR's. You cannot blame the QB for stone hands and alligator arms.

[Eknox]

Originally Posted by Angry

I disagree with your observations on these 2 areas.

First off, many of Vicks passes would hit recievers in the hands or the numbers and they wouldn't catch the ball.

Secondly, Vick much like our own JC had several offenses to learn over a short period of time. The one offense that he spent the most time in was a version of the WCO ran by Jim Mora Jr. He has had plenty of time to mull over the WCO. I'm sure he's got it.

While in the WCO Vick's only reliable target was Crumpler. The two of them thrived together. Crumpler was a Pro Bowler with Vick throwing to him. What has Crumpler done without Vick? I believe that if you give Vick some halfway decent recievers, then you have a sick offense both in the passing and the running game.

Now Vick might have some issues throwing to the smaller recievers like Moss just like JC does. They both need bigger targets to be successfull, but one is a dual threat and the other doesn't even know how to slide.

well said.

[Dirtbag59]

Ok, here we go again with Vick. I keep on hearing all these arguments like how great an athlete Vick is and this and that. Look if he couldn't change the game in his prime then what makes you think he's going to do it when he's in his 30's. A linebacker lined up 3-6 yards off the ball running a 4.6 40 is easily fast enough to catch Vick when he scrambles. In fact part of the reason Vick failed was because defenses as a whole were already fast enough to catch him.

It was during the initial years where he was protected beyond belief (ie run to pass ratio) that he was able to be successful. On top of that a lot of teams felt that they had to defend the run and the pass when playing Vick when in reality they only had to focus on the run. Also a lot of teams learned pretty quickly after watching Vick get knocked around by the Buc's that a Cover 2 zone was the perfect defense to contain Vick as he had minimal accuracy to compliment his rail gun of an arm.

The Eagles also attacked him during those NFC championship game using minimal coverage. And that was running the west coast offense.

Trust me, I watched more of Vick then most of you who only caught highlights on sportscenter. The guy isn't that good a QB. He's barely decent. And no this has nothing to do with his off the field exploits. From a pure talent perspective he is virtually nothing especially after D-Coordinators figured out how to stop him.

And for those of you who want numbers fine. As a passer Vick never completed over 57% of his passes. On top of that for all the rushing yards he gathered he still remains extremely turnover prone. Hell in 2004 alone he had 16 fumbles. To date he's fumbled the ball 55 times in his career and two of those years were short years for him.

However if you don't believe me then watch how well he does when he gets back in the league for someone else.

[That Guy]

seriously? people are still defending vick as a great player?

where's the proof? yeah he was good in college, but in the pros he was nothing special.

[Ruhskins]

Why are we discussing Vick, dude is not even out of jail nor has he been reinstated to the league.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Why are we discussing Vick, dude is not even out of jail nor has he been reinstated to the league.

Because he is going to get out, he is going to be reinstated, and he is a talented player that is basically up for grabs when the time comes. Regardless of where he goes it is interesting conversation. This is a Football forum.

He is also going to put up more points than Albert Haynesworth, and we cannot shut up about him.

[That Guy]

and he's like, 85 now.

[The Goat]

Canty.

1) He's a Cowboy
2) Already set put do a massive, catastrophic upgrade on the d-line and oh yeah still have pretty damn good ends w/ Taylor, Carter, and Evans
3) Would like to use any FA money that might be spent on Canty to add starters, depth to the OL and LB corp... I want Brown, Willis, June or Boley or Crowell, and Bart Scott all before Canty.
4) He's an f'ing Cowboy.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Canty.

1) He's a Cowboy
2) Already set put do a massive, catastrophic upgrade on the d-line and oh yeah still have pretty damn good ends w/ Taylor, Carter, and Evans
3) Would like to use any FA money that might be spent on Canty to add starters, depth to the OL and LB corp... I want Brown, Willis, June or Boley or Crowell, and Bart Scott all before Canty.
4) He's an f'ing Cowboy.

hopefully we can draft orakpo. I rather get an OL guy before a DE in free agency if we're getting haynesworth. then draft orakpo, and two OL guys (one with our 3rd, one with the late 2nd/early 3rd from letting golston go).

we'd still have enough cash to sign hall and get an average (cheap) FA LB as a stopgap.

[SmootSmack]

Official: Vick OK'd to go home | ajc.com

[That Guy]

some people aren't worth arguing with.

seriously, if you think vick's the second coming, and his terrible stats over his entire career somehow aren't his fault AT ALL, more power to you, but to me he's just an electric (and fumble prone) running back that can throw and never lived up to the hype. he'll be out, but even if he gets back in the nfl, it'll be for pennies and i don't expect he'll have any more success this time around.

mcnabb had terrible receivers, so did drew brees, it's not like he's the ONLY guy in the history of the NFL to have crap WRs... but the other QBs were actually, you know, good, so they made it work.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by That Guy

some people aren't worth arguing with.

seriously, if you think vick's the second coming, and his terrible stats over his entire career somehow aren't his fault AT ALL, more power to you, but to me he's just an electric (and fumble prone) running back that can throw and never lived up to the hype. he'll be out, but even if he gets back in the nfl, it'll be for pennies and i don't expect he'll have any more success this time around.

mcnabb had terrible receivers, so did drew brees, it's not like he's the ONLY guy in the history of the NFL to have crap WRs... but the other QBs were actually, you know, good, so they made it work.

Never said Vick was the second coming, honestly where do you get this stuff? In all honesty this time around I am more interested in him as a slash player. Maybe a backup or a temp fix until Brennan or the next big thing is ready to start. If JC comes back then cool.

It took both of those QB's 6 and 4 years respectably to put up numbers considerably better than Vicks (% and passer rating). Neither of them missed an entire season (early in their careers) due to injury either.

Every QB develops at a different pace and some good ones later in their life and/or careers ie Kurt Warner, Randall Cunningham, Roger Staubach, Trent Green, Rich Gannon, Kerry Collins to name a few. Notice that I said good and not great outstanding or excellent.

I am not calling Vick great, but he is not as bad as you guys are making him out to be either. I feel that he could be cheap and he can help any team in more ways than one. Not just a a passer.

Now since you believe that I am not worth arguing with "Airman", I will not be expecting a reply.

[That Guy]

is that name calling? are we in 5th grade?

look, you're saying A) yeah, so what if other QBs were better, vick missed a season (which is, i believe, another excuse). and you're saying the skins should sign him? seriously? how can you sign him as a temp fix when he doesn't/wouldn't actually fix anything??

um, no thanks.

besides, those guys that developed later on studied playbooks and learned their systems - something that vick's coaches have always knocked him on for either A) no being up to it, or B) thinking he was good enough without the extra effort. That and a few years playing with the prison system don't set a good track record for late career success.

and why i say the argument isn't worth the time, it that i already know vick's a dead end, and you're convinced (you "know") he's not. All I see are excuses for why he sucked, but somehow it's not his fault. I doubt you're changing you mind either, cause if you were, the whole years of not being good in the NFL and prison/dog thing would have already swayed you.

so it's pretty pointless.