What is RG3 worth to us?

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

I'm hoping your joking here.

If not, let me grill you like I will grill everyone else on this board who suggest using FA in a rebuilding way.

You use Free Agency if you have quick-patch fixes on your team. You're never going to have continuity if your always bringing in new guys.

Free agency can also be cancerous to your team. Albert Haynesworth. He got paid and quit playing. Adam Archuleta. He got paid and became a bench player. Brandon Lloyd. He never scored a TD in his career with us. Dana Stublefield. OJ Atogwe. We paid him; he has now been benched.

Green Bay. Pittsburgh. New Orleans. New England. Baltimore. New York. Atlanta. Now Houston and Detroit. What do these teams have in common? They build their teams through the draft and are in the playoffs (with most of these teams in the playoffs year in and year out.

Do you know how many starters/big name FA's all 7 teams signed?
A Combined 8. That's an average of 1 per team, with Green Bay and Pitt signing 0.

Look back to 09. The saints were weak at one area, secondary. They went out and signed Darren Sharper and Jabarri Greer. That went from a weakness to a strength. Now their in the playoffs every year, cause they had a Quick Fix which could be done in FA. (They also didn't go out an get the Big name guys like Dawkins or Dunta Robinson.)

Baltimore for as long as I can remember, signs one Free Agent every year, so that they can maintain continuity.

Green Bay has every single starter on their offense Drafted by them. Not one single FA.

Philly this year pulled a Redskins signing Nnamdi, Cullen Jenkins, Steve Smith, Vince Young, Ronnie Brown, (and traded for DRC). How did that work?

Free Agency was made, like I said as a 'oh we need just a CB and a veteran WR that knows what he's doing.' No as a "we need a CB, RB, WR, QB, ILB, OT, OG, we can address as much of that as we can in FA and the rest in the draft since that comes after FA."

Now I understand you say we get just 3 positions in FA and the rest in the draft, but already thats 1 maybe 2 positions more than we need to get in Free Agency instead of the draft. This is that super bowl mentality of 'well we need these couple of positions in FA and the rest in the draft, then we'll be a better team.'

No we won't be better, we are about 13 positions away from becoming a 'contender'. So with that said, we need to go the old MAX of 2 Free Agents an offseason, and draft and develop what we got and evaluate what else we need the next offseason.


So, to summarize; Don't suggest we need to get more than 2 guys in FA relating back to old bad habbits, because that, in part is one of the reasons we're bad, and I'm just going to copy and paste this post to the next skins fan who 'truly' wants us to get better by us using an old bad habit of addressing multiple needs in FA, to 'solve' our problems.

Not joking at all, which is why if you read what I wrote, I specified three positions where FA can help us rather than saying we can spend boldly to address the laundry list of positional need you mentioned.

There is no one way to rebuild a team. The Steelers and Packers are bad examples because they didn't REBUILD, they already had outstanding bases of talent that they are building upon. But even they have players that originated on other teams (Woodson, Ryan Grant, Ryan Clark) as well. They used free agency, just better than we have.

Signing free agents isn't a bad thing. Signing the WRONG free agents is. The Haynesworth, Archuleta (really? still using this example) argument is just lazy and frankly dumb. How did London Fletcher get to the Redskins, free agency. You mentioned Atlanta, Michael Turner-free agent, John Abraham-free agent.

Just as Kerrigan was a great draft pick, Kelly and Thomas were awful picks. As I said before, it doesn't matter how many picks you have, it's what you do with them. Same as free agency. Doesn't matter if you do 1, 2, 6, 8, 22. If you do it well and better than anyone else you'll have success.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Not joking at all, which is why if you read what I wrote, I specified three positions where FA can help us rather than saying we can spend boldly to address the laundry list of positional need you mentioned.

There is no one way to rebuild a team. The Steelers and Packers are bad examples because they didn't REBUILD, they already had outstanding bases of talent that they are building upon. But even they have players that originated on other teams (Woodson, Ryan Grant, Ryan Clark) as well. They used free agency, just better than we have.

Signing free agents isn't a bad thing. Signing the WRONG free agents is. The Haynesworth, Archuleta (really? still using this example) argument is just lazy and frankly dumb. How did London Fletcher get to the Redskins, free agency. You mentioned Atlanta, Michael Turner-free agent, John Abraham-free agent.

Just as Kerrigan was a great draft pick, Kelly and Thomas were awful picks. As I said before, it doesn't matter how many picks you have, it's what you do with them. Same as free agency. Doesn't matter if you do 1, 2, 6, 8, 22. If you do it well and better than anyone else you'll have success.

1) And they had those bases, because they drafted well for years.
2) If you read my post, I said per season, not in the past 5-10 years.
3) You have too, especially if you hear names of headcase athletes like DeSean Jackson and Vincent Jackson mentioned in other FA posts.
3) whole other regime.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

Free agency can also be cancerous to your team. Albert Haynesworth. He got paid and quit playing. Adam Archuleta. He got paid and became a bench player. Brandon Lloyd. He never scored a TD in his career with us. Dana Stublefield. OJ Atogwe. We paid him; he has now been benched.

Green Bay. Pittsburgh. New Orleans. New England. Baltimore. New York. Atlanta. Now Houston and Detroit. What do these teams have in common? They build their teams through the draft and are in the playoffs (with most of these teams in the playoffs year in and year out.

pittsburg drafted holmes in the 1st and gave him away for a 5th. how did jeff george work out? bad picks are bad picks whether they're in the draft or FA, so let's be careful about the drafting is the only option routine. detriot? really? the team that went 0-16 and will get bounced from th playoffs in 2 games with about 42 top 5 picks... that's the example? how'd joey harrington work out btw?

the saints built through the draft? you mean like when they signed drew brees as a FA and finally ended about 432 years of losing?

new england signs FAs/trades pretty consistently. moss, dillon, ocho, welker, branch, etc etc.

the other three do draft well and are mainly comprised of picks.

but this last year we signed otagwe, wilson, cofield, bowen to big deals and tons of smaller deals (gaffney etc - FAR more than your 2 FA limit), and guess what? they worked out (otagwe is a meh).

we need 4 players - OL, QB, CB, WR and we have 2 picks where we might be able to expect help this year, so at least 2 are going to be FA signings if we want some re-assurance they'll be filled.

QB and CB are the most expensive in FA cause there just isn't much there (flynn, grimes, rogers and that's almost it). I wouldn't mind signing any of those guys and/or a WR and/or grubbs... that's 0-4, but I'd say we need at least 2 and our picks to be competitive next year (and no i don't think we should expect to wait 3 more years for the playoffs).

this isn't cerrato handing out stupid contracts to bad players, so let's get over that. haynesworth and archuleta, lloyd, hall, etc were regarded as mistakes WHEN THEY WERE SIGNED. It was bad FO evaluation and the fans don't have any control over that.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by That Guy

pittsburg drafted holmes in the 1st and gave him away for a 5th. how did jeff george work out? bad picks are bad picks whether they're in the draft or FA, so let's be careful about the drafting is the only option routine. detriot? really? the team that went 0-16 and will get bounced from th playoffs in 2 games with about 42 top 5 picks... that's the example? how'd joey harrington work out btw?

the saints built through the draft? you mean like when they signed drew brees as a FA and finally ended about 432 years of losing?

new england signs FAs/trades pretty consistently. moss, dillon, ocho, welker, branch, etc etc.

the other three do draft well and are mainly comprised of picks.

but this last year we signed otagwe, wilson, cofield, bowen to big deals and tons of smaller deals (gaffney etc - FAR more than your 2 FA limit), and guess what? they worked out (otagwe is a meh).

we need 4 players - OL, QB, CB, WR and we have 2 picks where we might be able to expect help this year, so at least 2 are going to be FA signings if we want some re-assurance they'll be filled.

QB and CB are the most expensive in FA cause there just isn't much there (flynn, grimes, rogers and that's almost it). I wouldn't mind signing any of those guys and/or a WR and/or grubbs... that's 0-4, but I'd say we need at least 2 and our picks to be competitive next year (and no i don't think we should expect to wait 3 more years for the playoffs).

this isn't cerrato handing out stupid contracts to bad players, so let's get over that. haynesworth and archuleta, lloyd, hall, etc were regarded as mistakes WHEN THEY WERE SIGNED. It was bad FO evaluation and the fans don't have any control over that.

All these teams build through the draft with all their all pro players. All these teams except for New Orleans and Houston, have drafted their QB's.

I know its an annoying cliche, but it is a QB driven league, and you going to find your franchise QB 95% of the time in the draft.

And you go on about how these teams have gotten free agents that have been good or have been busts; You Clearly Didn't Read my original post. All teams get FA's, at sometime or all the time, but the good teams build through the draft. Steelers build through the draft and their in the playoffs every year. Green Bay;do I need to go on?

This also goes back to winning. We didn't win with the old regime and their FA habits. We currently aren't winning that well with this regime. Sure they are showing promise, but in this league, everyones professional and you are expected to win and improve. (ah ah ahh hold on) Just look at San Fran, they were 5-11 last year now their 13-3. We were 6-10 last year, now we're 5-11. Until we start winning we as a franchise are still going to be viewed as a laughing stock until we change our ways. Yes we can go get SOME free agents; I'm just saying don't get crazy on them. And as for the whole 'oh we got Bowen and wilson and so and so, etc. etc.' we got them; their Solid players at best. Let me be that realistic bubble burster for you. Cofield you could argue isn't suited at the NT spot. Josh Wilson got picked on a lot this year and lost a lot of matchups. OJ wasn't a good signing considering his health and play declined as the season went on.

Did we have bad signings? No, not really. Did we have signings that I am 100% confident in? Some. Is our signings better than Vinny's? We'll see, but so far they appear to be. Did we sign too many FA's? Yes!

It just seems to be the same trend with us; "We need to build through the draft" ;"Oh man I would like so and so and ____ in FA" ; "I love all our FA signings, getting him and him and that guy and him and possibly him could be huge for us this year! If we have a good draft we could definitely have something good." ; "We had a solid draft and some great FA's, now I'm stoked and opportunistic for this season!"; "god, so and so sucks, we need to replace so and so, why did we sign him, we need to replace him. I'm just ready for this season to be over and the draft." Repeat.

[CultBrennan59]

I think we should trade up to get griffin because the other QB's we have questions marks with (Foles, Tannehill, Jones) and I know we wouldn't just draft Kellen moore and stay sold on him alone (I would).

[Ruhskins]

New Orleans and Houston got their QBs through free agency. If the team is going to go after Luck or even RG3, they will need to sacrifice picks and fill other holes through free agency. There's a big difference between Vinny's way of free agency and a normal GM's way. Aside from the boneheaded moves at QB, our front office has shown some good judgement in terms of free agency.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

New Orleans and Houston got their QBs through free agency. If the team is going to go after Luck or even RG3, they will need to sacrifice picks and fill other holes through free agency. There's a big difference between Vinny's way of free agency and a normal GM's way. Aside from the boneheaded moves at QB, our front office has shown some good judgement in terms of free agency.

Not to be nit-picky, but Houston traded for Schaub, who was a guy who saw lots of playing time over the years, more than Matt Flynn has (not saying Flynns bad). And New Orleans signed a QB who was a starter for years, but suffered a injury. If Brees hadn't been injured, he probably would have been franchised and dealt. Point is that Brees's don't come out in free agency really ever or at all.

And our front office now is getting the hang of what to do FA wise and draft wise. Our old front office, with Vinny and Dan was not at all good with signing free agents. London Fletcher. Thats it. Guys like Haynesworth and Archuletta stick out a whole lot more than a great signing like London does.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

Not to be nit-picky, but Houston traded for Schaub, who was a guy who saw lots of playing time over the years, more than Matt Flynn has (not saying Flynns bad). And New Orleans signed a QB who was a starter for years, but suffered a injury. If Brees hadn't been injured, he probably would have been franchised and dealt. Point is that Brees's don't come out in free agency really ever or at all.

And our front office now is getting the hang of what to do FA wise and draft wise. Our old front office, with Vinny and Dan was not at all good with signing free agents. London Fletcher. Thats it. Guys like Haynesworth and Archuletta stick out a whole lot more than a great signing like London does.

They were still free agents...and they had their risks. As I said, I am all about building through the draft, but saying that you are not going to acquire players through free agency b/c of the bonehead moves of Vinny Cerrato is a bit naive. Personally, I want us to acquire our QB of the future through the draft.

[That Guy]

bowen's solid at best? cofield isn't an NT? what team have you been watching.

you're arguing in circles, it's pointless. you're obviously right and no one knows what they're talking about, but its funny how the saints "build through the draft" but the best 2 players their team may have ever have are drew brees and sproles, both of whom signed as FAs.

and green bay traded for favre and got the first big FA ever in reggie white. I don't understand this crusade against FA signings. as long as the players are good it shouldn't matter. plenty of draft picks are horrible or bust, so why not take the best of both? it makes no sense to put artificial limits based on nothing beyond your opinion.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by That Guy

bowen's solid at best? cofield isn't an NT? what team have you been watching.

you're arguing in circles, it's pointless. you're obviously right and no one knows what they're talking about, but its funny how the saints "build through the draft" but the best 2 players their team may have ever have are drew brees and sproles, both of whom signed as FAs.

and green bay traded for favre and got the first big FA ever in reggie white. I don't understand this crusade against FA signings. as long as the players are good it shouldn't matter. plenty of draft picks are horrible or bust, so why not take the best of both? it makes no sense to put artificial limits based on nothing beyond your opinion.

both those guys I've mentioned at the top have been solid guys for us this year. Our best DLineman was probably Carriker based on the fact he had, what like 6 sacks? I remember people here on this board questioning if cofield was suited for the NT spot after some of his performances in games this year. He wasn't a bad signing, nor was he that great difference maker. Over Maake who we had last year; yeah he was better. But was he the best option? No, not when Aubrayo Franklin was still out there and accepted a 1 year deal for 4 million.

And you didn't read my originial post. I said that these guys go out and get 1 to 2 free agents a year. Brees was in 2006. Sproles was 2011. Franklin was 2011. Greer and Sharper were 2009. They didn't get all these guys in one year. I'm saying you got to sprinkle in some free agency signings, not use them as the main ingredient to make your team.

Still confused? Message me because I don't feel like filling up a thread dedicated to RG3 be filled about FA talk.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

both those guys I've mentioned at the top have been solid guys for us this year. Our best DLineman was probably Carriker based on the fact he had, what like 6 sacks? I remember people here on this board questioning if cofield was suited for the NT spot after some of his performances in games this year. He wasn't a bad signing, nor was he that great difference maker. Over Maake who we had last year; yeah he was better. But was he the best option? No, not when Aubrayo Franklin was still out there and accepted a 1 year deal for 4 million.

And you didn't read my originial post. I said that these guys go out and get 1 to 2 free agents a year. Brees was in 2006. Sproles was 2011. Franklin was 2011. Greer and Sharper were 2009. They didn't get all these guys in one year. I'm saying you got to sprinkle in some free agency signings, not use them as the main ingredient to make your team.

Still confused? Message me because I don't feel like filling up a thread dedicated to RG3 be filled about FA talk.

Um....I think you might be this week's winner. Let me confer with GMScud

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Um....I think you might be this week's winner. Let me confer with GMScud

What?

[Dirtbag59]

These three plays represent best how I feel about RG3.

[mlmpetert]

^ Yeah what the F is up with that?

[MTK]

He wanted other opinions.