Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?

[SkinsRock]

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Regardless of how Brunell plays on Monday night, this QB thing is a nightmare for the Skins. No one thinks Mark Brunnel is the future of the Skins, even for this season. At best, he'll play mediocre and win a few games. In the meantime, we destroyed what little progress Ramsey made in the offseason, and when he gets the call when Brunnel gets injured, and he will get the call, then the crap is gonna really hit the fan. I think the fans question Gibbs because this latest move was just so unlike him. It really makes you question what was once the unquestionable: Can you really take Joe Gibbs at his word?

Gibbs wants to do one thing: WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!!! That's what he is paid to do. So if that means changing his mind and "going against his word", so be it.
You are right though, Brunell is not the long-term answer. He is here to hold the job while playing soldi until someone else steps up...presumably Ramsey this year or more likely Campbell in a season or two. I disagree about Ramsey though. He will play to the best of his ability if he needs to go back in. He is a team guy, and assuming his Redskin days are numbered, his performance affects his value if he is to be released or traded.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...

i hope to god what you say about little drop off in our defense if Williams leaves is true. lets hope he doesnt.

and whether it was naming and practicing Ramsey as starter without being truly convinced, or switching to a 35yr old QB who was the worst in the NFL the year before, 19 minutes into the season...trust me...whatever it is, it's a DEBACLE.

[paulskinsfan]

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

Gibbs wants to do one thing: WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!!! That's what he is paid to do. So if that means changing his mind and "going against his word", so be it.
You are right though, Brunell is not the long-term answer. He is here to hold the job while playing soldi until someone else steps up...presumably Ramsey this year or more likely Campbell in a season or two. I disagree about Ramsey though. He will play to the best of his ability if he needs to go back in. He is a team guy, and assuming his Redskin days are numbered, his performance affects his value if he is to be released or traded.

Oh I think Ramsey will give effort, I just don't think his performance will be good based on no reps with the first team and confidence that may never come back. The kid will try, I just don't think there is any way he will succeed with our team now.....ever.

[SkinsRock]

Originally Posted by offiss

A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.

Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning!

[MTK]

Guys let's face it, Ramsey wasn't Gibbs' choice from the very start. So to be concerned with how Ramsey is going to deal with this long term is silly. Campbell is his long term choice, and Brunell is in for the short term.

[paulskinsfan]

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

But you have to give Gibbs the personnel man credit for bringing in Williams and the rest of the coaching staff. Not to mention signing or drafting players like Portis, Taylor, Cooley, Springs, Griffen, Daniels, etc. Arguements about team management in terms of FA and trades vs. the draft can be made (about ANY team) until people are blue in the face. The only exception is NE due to their success....the Eagles have resorted to signing high priced FA's and are starting to pay the price like other teams.
If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...

I do give Gibbs kudos for some FA signings. Where Gibbs fails to see the big picture is through the draft. When you draft a guy in the 3rd round, and he winds up being a starter, or even a quality backup, you now have him for the next 5-6 years at a VERY low price. By the time his contract expires you hopefully have drafted or picked up someone to take their place. Through the draft you can build your team CHEAPLY. When you build through FAs, then the salary cap looms.

[MTK]

I'm sorry but Byner and Riggs worked out perfectly for us and Woods was a one hit wonder.

As for Howard, check anybody's draft resume and you'll see everyone around the league makes mistakes in the draft.

He easily would have been somebody else's mistake that year. He was a projected first round pick, the Skins moved up to grab him, so what? Are we just going to hang this on Gibbs for the rest of his life? Please, get over it already. That one mistake doesn't mean the man can't evaluate talent. Even top picks are a crapshoot at times. Look at Taylor, they did all the homework they could on him, and he still ends up being a pain in the ass and got himself into legal troubles. Stuff like that happens. The most sure thing can end up a bust and it happens to every team, every GM and every coach if you're around long enough.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning!

SR, high spending buisness? Gibbs is the one responsible for 92 mil tied up between 2 player, Brunell who should be a backup, and Portis who is a by product of the denver system. I understand the team part but how do you think that is going right now? And I will tell you this Gibbs better hope Brunell lights it up monday night, because if he looks anything like last year he will be answering an awful lot of questions. And if that happens I would be curious to see if he swallows his pride and go's back to Ramsey, or throws the rookie in?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm sorry but Byner and Riggs worked out perfectly for us and Woods was a one hit wonder.

As for Howard, check anybody's draft resume and you'll see everyone around the league makes mistakes in the draft.

He easily would have been somebody else's mistake that year. He was a projected first round pick, the Skins moved up to grab him, so what? Are we just going to hang this on Gibbs for the rest of his life? Please, get over it already. That one mistake doesn't mean the man can't evaluate talent. Even top picks are a crapshoot at times. Look at Taylor, they did all the homework they could on him, and he still ends up being a pain in the ass and got himself into legal troubles. Stuff like that happens. The most sure thing can end up a bust and it happens to every team, every GM and every coach if you're around long enough.

Well we know it keep's happening to gibbs.

Byner worked out much better than Riggs, Icky blew his knee out the next season but he was playing his games on turf as well, who knows if that happens if he's a skin, the problem was in the philosophy between the 2, Beathard had it right you build teams through the draft not by signing veteran estabished players, and that theory applies to today's NFL more drastically with the salary cap now instituded.

[GoSkins!]

Yeah, Taylor, Cooley, and Rogers have turned out to be terrible picks. We should have gone with guys like Winslow...

[SkinsRock]

Originally Posted by offiss

SR, high spending buisness? Gibbs is the one responsible for 92 mil tied up between 2 player, Brunell who should be a backup, and Portis who is a by product of the denver system. I understand the team part but how do you think that is going right now? And I will tell you this Gibbs better hope Brunell lights it up monday night, because if he looks anything like last year he will be answering an awful lot of questions. And if that happens I would be curious to see if he swallows his pride and go's back to Ramsey, or throws the rookie in?

Gibbs wanted Brunell and told Snyder to get it done. Kudos to Mark's agent for getting him that deal. Portis had a "bad" year and still had like the eighth highest rushing yardage in 70+ years of team history. A product of the Denver system...ok.
How is it going right now? The Redskins are 1-0 and the QB that guided the scoring drives in that game is our starter. At this point, that's not too bad in my book...
But yeah, Brunell has to prove that Gibbs is right and last year was a fluke. As much as I like Ramsey, I agree with Coach Gibbs in that until Patrick finds a way to not turn the ball over, Brunell is the better man for the job.

[56FAN]

gibbs is turning it around, it may not be pretty but we are moving and in the right direction.again, i say to my fellow warpather's, don't get all caught up in the media. those people just stirr the pot. that's all they do, even when there's nothing . they will stirr.i like ramsey, but as i said before, our margin for error on this team is very thin. turn overs cannot be tolerated at all.even from ramsey.this storm too shall pass.
hang in there people.

[illdefined]

its been a long long storm...

[Longtimefan]

I'm afraid there is no breaking point for the Hall of Famer and from what I continue to read in these post, many of these so-called Redskins fans have very little faith. Gibbs said he's not going to leave here without another ring, so who am I to beleive you or him?
Never before have I seen so much carrying-on over the changing of a QB. Some act like it's the end of the world. Just two seasons ago Spurrier changed QB's like socks and it was no more than routine, nothing said, now with so many Brunell haters turning into Gibbs haters, the changing of one for another seems to be such a giant deal. It just dosen't make sense guys because neither of these QB's are going to be here in a couple years anyway, so why get all worked up about two players who aren't even going to be with the team. Real fans are warriors, they understand there are going to be up's and down's, good and bad, but everytime adversity comes you don't jump ship. That's been our number one problem since Gibbs lelf in 1992, every time we didn't have "instant" success with something or someone we jumped to change, and what have we accomplished by continuing to change? "Nothing" I hope Gibbs stays with this team until he get's it right because there is no one available who is any better. If there is, throw me out a name.

[jermus22]

Originally Posted by Kope

The end of his contract. Period.

We need continuity more than anything else. Three to four years of it regardless of record.

We have so much mediocrity to over come- it takes time.

Excellent point. There's been enough upheaval in terms of coaching changes over the last few years. And it would be pretty low to fire the man who got the 'Skins their only three Super Bowl victories (not to mention HOF induction).