Santana vs. Randy

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

I'm assuming he meant bottom of the top 10 or 15 (i.e. 14/15). Awkward phrasing though.

Off the Top of My Head and In no particular order, the top 15 receivers (give or take a few) in the league. So you are telling me Moss is at the bottom of that? Who would you take over him (not counting age)? Smith, Holt, C. Johnson, Harrison, Fitzgerald, maybe Andre Johnson (who would be a real stud on a better team). So that still puts you at #7 on a bad day, but I guess you could make the argument for #9 or 10 . . . certainly not out of the top ten though.

Steve Smith
Chad Johnson
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
T.O.
Donald Driver
Torry Holt
Randy Moss
Laverneous Coles
Hines Ward
Andre Johnson
Javon Walker
Fitzgerald
Boldin
Santana Moss

the players in bold should not even be mentioned on the list or in the same breath as the others on this list. Where the hell did Javon Walker come from, he simply hasn't played long enough to make this list (34 Games Started). Andre Johnson is IMO the most overrated of the bunch. He has never been on a competitive team and gets a bunch of garbage passes which boost his stats. He has only had one 80+ receptions season and has never had more than 6 TD's in a season (meaning that he is neither an outstanding possession or big play receiver). Santana (59) has started roughly the same amount of games as Johnson (61):

receptions: Santana (290); Andre (310) comparable
yards: Santana (4689); Andre (3953) Santana has 700 more
TD's: Santana (34); Andre (17) Santana has DOUBLE

Donald driver has played many more seasons so his career is further along than santana. But his numbers arent that impressive considering his tenure

[gabe1984]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Reggie Wayne plays on a team where he has been the 2nd option his whole career. If you put him on another team where he is the #1 target is he still the same player? Perhaps. But maybe not.

Again I'm not dogging on Santana Moss. I'M GLAD HE IS A REDSKIN. I just think Randy Moss is better. The guy has scored over 100 TD's. It's not even an agument if you ask me. And now that he has Tom Brady throwing to him I would bet that you will see the old Randy Moss. He still has plenty of gas left in the tank.

Dude, you're totally dogging on Santana when you say that he's not even a pure #1 receiver, how is that not dogging on the man? Did you think he was a pure #1 receiver in 2005?

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

You sort of hit my point about Wayne, yards alone don't really determine whether or not you're truly a number one. Other factors should be considered outside of stats alone. For instance, what do you do with opportunities given? In that regard, if you line TO and Reggie Wayne on the same squad, who's the number 1 guy? TO who drops more balls than anyone in the NFL, or Reggie Wayne who is efficient with the number of touches he gets?

And I'll state emphatically, again, Randy Moss is probably a first ballot HOF, but as of 5/3/2007, I take Sanantana Moss all day long over R. Moss.

Really?? Do you know the pressure Randy Moss puts on a defense when he is in the red zone? The dude is 6'5 and can jump out of the gym and runs a 4.3. He just creates all kinds of match-up problems for any corner. When he is used correctly, like he will be in NE, and when he is motivated, and that's a BIG IF, the guy is almost unstopable. You know damn well Bill B. is not going to stand for the Randy Moss that played Oak. You can bet your life on that. Plus NE has solid vets to keep his ass in line. I think RM was also down because of the situation he was in. He knew Oak sucked and he's not the type of guy to have in the locker room when things are down. But I can't imagine how good he is going to be with Tom Brady throwing him the rock. This is the first time Brady has a true stud at WR.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by gabe1984

Dude, you're totally dogging on Santana when you say that he's not even a pure #1 receiver, how is that not dogging on the man?

C'mon dude. I love the guy. I said he was a very very good #2 in my opinion. Dogging him would be saying he's sucks or is overrated.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Well, I want to see the 05 Moss in 07. But until then I stand by my opinion.

Don't forget that Santana's last two years in NY were really good also. He didn't just come out of nowhere in 2005, he simply got more oppertunities.

He was good last year in the limited oppertunites he got, dogged by a hammy and whatnot.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

C'mon dude. I love the guy. I said he was a very very good #2 in my opinion. Dogging him would be saying he's sucks or is overrated.

I think it's clear that the boards opinion of a No. 1 receiver and your opinion are whats causing this disagreement.

To me and many others, a No. 1 WR simply means a guy who can be relied on at any point in the game and can do his job well.

To you, a No. 1 WR is one of the rarest and most elite players in the game. Guys like Boldin, Fitzgerald, Roy Willams, and Andre Johnson didn't make your list.

It's just semantics. I would argue that Santana is possibly the second most valuable receiver in the NFL (S. Smith)...but I would be undervaluing some veteran skills in Wayne, Harrison, Chad Johnson, and Holt.

Our perceptions of what a No. 1 receiver needs to be is the only argument here.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Really?? Do you know the pressure Randy Moss puts on a defense when he is in the red zone? The dude is 6'5 and can jump out of the gym and runs a 4.3. He just creates all kinds of match-up problems for any corner. When he is used correctly, like he will be in NE, and when he is motivated, and that's a BIG IF, the guy is almost unstopable. You know damn well Bill B. is not going to stand for the Randy Moss that played Oak. You can bet your life on that. Plus NE has solid vets to keep his ass in line. I think RM was also down because of the situation he was in. He knew Oak sucked and he's not the type of guy to have in the locker room when things are down. But I can't imagine how good he is going to be with Tom Brady throwing him the rock. This is the first time Brady has a true stud at WR.

First off, I watched Randy Moss sit at the podium when the Oakland Raiders introduced him following the trade, and out of his own mouth he was so happy to be a Raider and get a 'new start.' So, if Randy has been down it's certainly of his own doing, not the Raiders. He knew the situation he was getting into from day one. Oakland brought him there to help turn it around, I'll bet now that he's gone they'll actually make some progress. Secondly, as fast as Randy Moss is, I highly doubt he can still rip off at 4.3, not guaranteeing it, but I doubt at this point he still runs a 4.3/40.

Listen, I don't want to turn this into some Randy Moss hate thread, because that's not the stance I'm really trying to take here. Facts are facts. Moss will probably end up Canton some day, he's had a great career. And who knows, he could have a great year up there in N.E.
I'm guessing, barring any type of injury, he'll get around 1,100 yds.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think it's clear that the boards opinion of a No. 1 receiver and your opinion are whats causing this disagreement.

To me and many others, a No. 1 WR simply means a guy who can be relied on at any point in the game and can do his job well.

To you, a No. 1 WR is one of the rarest and most elite players in the game. Guys like Boldin, Fitzgerald, Roy Willams, and Andre Johnson didn't make your list.

It's just semantics. I would argue that Santana is possibly the second most valuable receiver in the NFL (S. Smith)...but I would be undervaluing some veteran skills in Wayne, Harrison, Chad Johnson, and Holt.

Our perceptions of what a No. 1 receiver needs to be is the only argument here.

Moss is our #1. No question about that. But compared to the elite #1's I don't think he is in that class of wr. The guys you mentioned are right on the edge.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Moss is our #1. No question about that. But compared to the elite #1's I don't think he is in that class of wr. The guys you mentioned are right on the edge.

What are you talking about? He was second in the leage in yards two seasons ago with 1400+ there are WR's who are considered number ones on their teams who haven't done that.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Don't forget that Santana's last two years in NY were really good also. He didn't just come out of nowhere in 2005, he simply got more oppertunities.

He was good last year in the limited oppertunites he got, dogged by a hammy and whatnot.

Exactly. He is really good. That is what I said. Last year was a mess. He was way out of sync with JC. They had no timimg at all. And Brunell struggled ( I know u think he didn't ) so he took the brunt of that. But I think he should bounce back with a better down the field passer. Don't you? One of Santana's strength's is adjusting well to the long ball while it's in the air. One thing is that the opposing defensive coordinators really caught on to that little screen play that worked so well in 05 and they were waiting for it. So I would like to see more mid range/deep passes to Santana this year instead of throwing it 5 yards and hoping he can break 50 tackles.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by angryssg

What are you talking about? He was second in the leage in yards two seasons ago with 1400+ there are WR's who are considered number ones on their teams who haven't done that.

I'm looking at his whole 6 year career. Not just 05.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I'm looking at his whole 6 year career. Not just 05.

I am not getting into this again with someone else. Your opinion is your opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, they all stink and nobody wants to smell someone elses.

[Monkeydad]

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I'm looking at his whole 6 year career. Not just 05.

Well actually in his 4 years that he has been a starter he has had two years of over 1000 yards (including 1400 in 2005) but the other season when he had 1100, he only started in 12 games due to injury...if he had played that season fully he might have had more than 1400. He also had 10 TD's in just 12 games that year.

Combine that with the fact that in his two "off" years when he had 800 yards receiving, he only started 14 games (which includes last seasons fiasco with Brunell) and I think u could make the argument that had he played in all of the games he could have had 4 str8 1000 yards seasons. That sounds pretty elite to me.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by angryssg

I am not getting into this again with someone else. Your opinion is your opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, they all stink and nobody wants to smell someone elses.

I don't mind smelling some people assholes. LOL!