Eagles cracks showing

FRPLG · 08-12-2005, 04:40 PM

So does anyone think the Eagles' personell strategy is in general showing it cracks? I mean they are reverred by everyone for not over paying for players and developing prospects but honestly what prospect have they developed besides the defensive side of the ball? Johnson (the DC) is clearly a monster. But apparently they can't generate any success in developing a WR (they had to go get head case TO) and the RB situation is clearly overrated. They haven't had a true quality tailback in years. Westbrook, while extremely talented, is a short and stocky WR playing tailback. They do seem to have some success at TE but really the only offensive weapon is McNabb who you can't say they "developed", he is just straight up good. All of sudden their practice of not paying guys what they deserve isn't working so great. They have holdouts and generally it seems players are getting more disgruntled every day. How long until this hits the Patriots? Or is this just my wishful thinking?

TheMalcolmConnection · 08-12-2005, 04:42 PM

Mario and Luigi's are...

FRPLG · 08-12-2005, 04:43 PM

I knew I'd crack (no pun intended...maybe) about the title.

TheMalcolmConnection · 08-12-2005, 04:44 PM

Patriots are still taking home Lombardi's...

Davnpurt · 08-12-2005, 05:28 PM

It does seem though that every spring the Eagles are dealing w/ a contract dispute: Vincent, Hughes, Trotter, Simon, Ho. Thomas, Burgess, Tra Thomas, & now Owens.

PSUSkinsFan21 · 08-12-2005, 05:46 PM

Actually, I would say they've done a good job of developing almost their entire offense. They've developed two good TEs (L.J. Smith and Chad Lewis), Duce Staley was a great back for his size and talent level when he was in Philly, Westbrook is a playmaker and has excelled because of the offensive system they run (west-coast), McNabb started out terribly for the first couple years, but has gotten better consistently each year, their O-line is consistently strong and many of those players are lifetime Eagles (in fact 4 of their 5 starters are lifetime Eagles.....Thomas, Hicks, Andrews, Fraley). Agreed, they've done nothing to develope any WRs, but overall I think they've done a great job of getting 100% out of almost every player that has come through their system.

Riggo44 · 08-12-2005, 06:03 PM

Way to prop up the igles PSUSkinsfan21! :vomit-smi Are you a spy??

SeasonTicketHolder · 08-12-2005, 06:46 PM

The key to stopping the eagles is stopping Brian Westbrook, not T.O. Whenever Westbrook is on the field, good things happen for the Eagles. I wish we would treat Portis more like Westbrook, having him catch screens and all that. That alone would make the offense much better.

JWsleep · 08-12-2005, 07:28 PM

I hate the iggles--but they are good at all phases of the game, and they have been for a few years now. I'm psyched if there's team turmoil, and they are not as good without TO, but they're the team to beat, mainly becuase of McNabb and their D. THey've had a stable coaching staff for a long time, and it shows. And McNabb has gotten better and better--and he makes big plays to win games. ANd Reid is good as well--he's won with feeley in there, without TO, without RBs, etc.

Still, every little bit helps here! A little distraction here, a loss of focus there, and in the NFL, someone passes you by. Man, am I going to be happy when we beat them down.

Daseal · 08-12-2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

the only offensive weapon is McNabb who you can't say they "developed", he is just straight up good.

I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. The Eagles offense relies so much on the passing game and big plays (they passed 12% more on first down than the 2nd ranked team) that without TO and Pinkston (as bad as he is) I don't think they can continue.

Here's what I wonder about the Eagles front office. TO isn't the first player to make accusations to say that the front office says don't worry about it, after the season we'll give you x, y, and z. Then come back and don't fulfill their promises. I wouldn't be suprised if they said we'll pay you but let's just get this deal done so you can get into camp. Which is why he completely ignored the NFL PA, etc. I think we can all admit that coming out of SF he DIDN'T get fair market value for a WR of his ability. Now, this fiasco with the Eagles has certainly dropped what he's worth, but I question if the Eagles FO doesn't like to make verbal deals then say NU UH.

That said, I'm not defending TOs actions at all, the way he's gone about this has been abominable. I just think the Eagles FO is more to blame than we're being lead to believe.

FRPLG · 08-12-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate.

Actually I agree 100% with you and probably tend to think he is one of the more overrated guys in the league. I simply made that statment rather than listen to everyone pipe in about McNabb. I realize many people think he is great so I was just going along really.
In my opinion McNabb is a top 10 QB but only because he makes better than average decisions and can make some plays with his feet. Without a stud WR I can list 8 or 9 QBs straight up that I'd take before him. I know it is not a popular position but good ole stupid Limbaugh was right when he said McNabb was overrated and probably got a little of his rub from being black. The guy is a quality athlete and a role model for other athletes in his classy demeanor and determination but he is not a great QB.

Schneed10 · 08-13-2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. The Eagles offense relies so much on the passing game and big plays (they passed 12% more on first down than the 2nd ranked team) that without TO and Pinkston (as bad as he is) I don't think they can continue.

Here's what I wonder about the Eagles front office. TO isn't the first player to make accusations to say that the front office says don't worry about it, after the season we'll give you x, y, and z. Then come back and don't fulfill their promises. I wouldn't be suprised if they said we'll pay you but let's just get this deal done so you can get into camp. Which is why he completely ignored the NFL PA, etc. I think we can all admit that coming out of SF he DIDN'T get fair market value for a WR of his ability. Now, this fiasco with the Eagles has certainly dropped what he's worth, but I question if the Eagles FO doesn't like to make verbal deals then say NU UH.

That said, I'm not defending TOs actions at all, the way he's gone about this has been abominable. I just think the Eagles FO is more to blame than we're being lead to believe.

I'd say that TO's original contract that the Eagles gave him was right on market value. Sure, he and Randy Moss are definitely the two most talented receivers in the game. But TO's contract only pays him like he's the 10th best receiver in the game. I say that's fair because of what a poor teammate he is. He didn't just all of a sudden become a pain in the ass this year in Philly, he was horrible to Jeff Garcia. Called him gay in the newspapers, complained that he never threw him the ball, yelled at him on the sidelines and in the huddle. If you're a team looking to sign TO, you definitely see the huge talent, but you have to discount it because he's such a pain in the ass. I wouldn't pay him a top 10 WR's salary, and I doubt many other teams would at this point.

BrudLee · 08-13-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'd say that TO's original contract that the Eagles gave him was right on market value. Sure, he and Randy Moss are definitely the two most talented receivers in the game. But TO's contract only pays him like he's the 10th best receiver in the game. I say that's fair because of what a poor teammate he is. He didn't just all of a sudden become a pain in the ass this year in Philly, he was horrible to Jeff Garcia. Called him gay in the newspapers, complained that he never threw him the ball, yelled at him on the sidelines and in the huddle. If you're a team looking to sign TO, you definitely see the huge talent, but you have to discount it because he's such a pain in the ass. I wouldn't pay him a top 10 WR's salary, and I doubt many other teams would at this point.

Please don't take this personally Schneed10, but that's a bullshit stat. This year - and this year only - Owens's base salary is ranked outside of the top ten in total compensation. However, with the signing bonus he received last year, his two-year compensation ranks him below Moss, Harrison, and (I think because of his new contract with the Jets) Coles. That's elite company. If he had kept his mouth shut, without any changes to his contract, he would receive an additional $7.5 million in bonus on April 1st.

The "10th best receiver" line is Rosenhaus rhetoric designed to illicit sympathy for his noble client. Take it with a grain of salt. Hell, take it with a whole salt lick.

Schneed10 · 08-13-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrudLee

Please don't take this personally Schneed10, but that's a bullshit stat. This year - and this year only - Owens's base salary is ranked outside of the top ten in total compensation. However, with the signing bonus he received last year, his two-year compensation ranks him below Moss, Harrison, and (I think because of his new contract with the Jets) Coles. That's elite company. If he had kept his mouth shut, without any changes to his contract, he would receive an additional $7.5 million in bonus on April 1st.

The "10th best receiver" line is Rosenhaus rhetoric designed to illicit sympathy for his noble client. Take it with a grain of salt. Hell, take it with a whole salt lick.

No offense taken. But I think Rosenhaus is more correct on the relative value of the contract than anyone else. If you're going to look at compensation for the last two seasons only, then you're eliminating anyone who didn't sign a contract within the last two seasons. Owens, Harrison and Coles all signed within the last two seasons. Saying they rank highly in two-year compensation doesn't say much, since the signing bonus comprises well more than half of the first two years of compensation in almost all NFL contracts.

Total contract value is a pretty worthless measure since so many contracts are backloaded such that the final few years are never intended to be honored. The best measuring stick is the size of the guaranteed money (usually equal to the signing bonus). Owens got $10 million from the Eagles. We gave Coles $13 million two years ago. Harrison signed with guarantees of $23 million (bonuses payable in several installments). In 2001, the Vikings signed Randy Moss to an extension giving him an $18 million signing bonus. He's still under that contract with the Raiders.

Owens is definitely underpaid when you consider his talent alone. I was just saying that when you consider the whole package, including his talent and how bad a teammate he is, the contract value seems right on to me.

CrazyCanuck · 08-13-2005, 03:06 PM

Here's what bugs me. TO was under contract last year with SF. No one would trade for him with that bulky deal so he was stuck. Not only did the NFL let him out of his contract but they let him play games with Baltimore and Philly until he got a deal he was happy with on a team he was happy with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Then one year later he's talking like he got screwed and wants more money???

Also, the "I'm not being paid market value" argument is a crock. Was he getting market value last year when he signed? Has so much changed in one year? Also what numbers do you use when making your argument (total contract, signing bonus, total bonus, etc.)?

And another thing, if you are the best WR in football and sign a 7-year deal, it is practically GUARANTEED that other WRs will be making more money than you by the time the 7-year deal expires. It's called INFLATION. If you want to be the highest paid WR at all times then put that in the contract.

The only time the "market value" argument would ever hold weight for me is with a guy like Sean Taylor. A young rookie who signs a relatively cheap and long deal and then quickly becomes one of the premier players in the league at his position. Even then his case is weak but at least there is a case. Note I am not referring to the real Sean Taylor here (who doesn't deserve a dime more at this point if you ask me), but a hypothetical guy like Sean Taylor.

08-12-2005, 04:40 PM	#1
FRPLG MVP Join Date: May 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 10,164	Cracks in the Eagles' foundation showing So does anyone think the Eagles' personell strategy is in general showing it cracks? I mean they are reverred by everyone for not over paying for players and developing prospects but honestly what prospect have they developed besides the defensive side of the ball? Johnson (the DC) is clearly a monster. But apparently they can't generate any success in developing a WR (they had to go get head case TO) and the RB situation is clearly overrated. They haven't had a true quality tailback in years. Westbrook, while extremely talented, is a short and stocky WR playing tailback. They do seem to have some success at TE but really the only offensive weapon is McNabb who you can't say they "developed", he is just straight up good. All of sudden their practice of not paying guys what they deserve isn't working so great. They have holdouts and generally it seems players are getting more disgruntled every day. How long until this hits the Patriots? Or is this just my wishful thinking?

08-12-2005, 04:42 PM	#2
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Charlottesville, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 19,264	Re: Eagles cracks showing Mario and Luigi's are... __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

08-12-2005, 04:43 PM	#3
FRPLG MVP Join Date: May 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 10,164	Re: Eagles cracks showing I knew I'd crack (no pun intended...maybe) about the title.

08-12-2005, 04:44 PM	#4
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Charlottesville, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 19,264	Re: Eagles cracks showing Patriots are still taking home Lombardi's... __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

08-12-2005, 05:28 PM	#5
Davnpurt Camp Scrub Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Bmore Age: 44 Posts: 51	Re: Eagles cracks showing It does seem though that every spring the Eagles are dealing w/ a contract dispute: Vincent, Hughes, Trotter, Simon, Ho. Thomas, Burgess, Tra Thomas, & now Owens.

08-12-2005, 05:46 PM	#6
PSUSkinsFan21 The Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Age: 48 Posts: 1,340	Re: Eagles cracks showing Actually, I would say they've done a good job of developing almost their entire offense. They've developed two good TEs (L.J. Smith and Chad Lewis), Duce Staley was a great back for his size and talent level when he was in Philly, Westbrook is a playmaker and has excelled because of the offensive system they run (west-coast), McNabb started out terribly for the first couple years, but has gotten better consistently each year, their O-line is consistently strong and many of those players are lifetime Eagles (in fact 4 of their 5 starters are lifetime Eagles.....Thomas, Hicks, Andrews, Fraley). Agreed, they've done nothing to develope any WRs, but overall I think they've done a great job of getting 100% out of almost every player that has come through their system. __________________ "Hail to the Redskins!" and "Fight on State!"

08-12-2005, 06:03 PM	#7
Riggo44 The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Clemente CA Age: 51 Posts: 2,390	Re: Eagles cracks showing Way to prop up the igles PSUSkinsfan21! :vomit-smi Are you a spy?? __________________ Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Benjamin Franklin

08-12-2005, 06:46 PM	#8
SeasonTicketHolder Impact Rookie Join Date: May 2004 Location: Maryland Age: 39 Posts: 549	Re: Eagles cracks showing The key to stopping the eagles is stopping Brian Westbrook, not T.O. Whenever Westbrook is on the field, good things happen for the Eagles. I wish we would treat Portis more like Westbrook, having him catch screens and all that. That alone would make the offense much better. __________________ Gonzaga College High School '04 Loyola College '08

08-12-2005, 07:28 PM	#9
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 56 Posts: 4,719	Re: Eagles cracks showing I hate the iggles--but they are good at all phases of the game, and they have been for a few years now. I'm psyched if there's team turmoil, and they are not as good without TO, but they're the team to beat, mainly becuase of McNabb and their D. THey've had a stable coaching staff for a long time, and it shows. And McNabb has gotten better and better--and he makes big plays to win games. ANd Reid is good as well--he's won with feeley in there, without TO, without RBs, etc. Still, every little bit helps here! A little distraction here, a loss of focus there, and in the NFL, someone passes you by. Man, am I going to be happy when we beat them down. __________________ Hail from Houston!

08-13-2005, 03:06 PM	#15
CrazyCanuck Serenity Now Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2,008	Re: Eagles cracks showing Here's what bugs me. TO was under contract last year with SF. No one would trade for him with that bulky deal so he was stuck. Not only did the NFL let him out of his contract but they let him play games with Baltimore and Philly until he got a deal he was happy with on a team he was happy with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Then one year later he's talking like he got screwed and wants more money??? Also, the "I'm not being paid market value" argument is a crock. Was he getting market value last year when he signed? Has so much changed in one year? Also what numbers do you use when making your argument (total contract, signing bonus, total bonus, etc.)? And another thing, if you are the best WR in football and sign a 7-year deal, it is practically GUARANTEED that other WRs will be making more money than you by the time the 7-year deal expires. It's called INFLATION. If you want to be the highest paid WR at all times then put that in the contract. The only time the "market value" argument would ever hold weight for me is with a guy like Sean Taylor. A young rookie who signs a relatively cheap and long deal and then quickly becomes one of the premier players in the league at his position. Even then his case is weak but at least there is a case. Note I am not referring to the real Sean Taylor here (who doesn't deserve a dime more at this point if you ask me), but a hypothetical guy like Sean Taylor.

Eagles cracks showing

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