Surprise Switch- Grossman will Start vs Phins; Beck to the Bench

[mooby]

Originally Posted by GMScud

IMO we're 0-4... I consider letting Jason Campbell walk a swing and a miss move. The guy isn't a star but he's better than what Rex/Donovan/Beck have given us.

At least with Rex we have a chance to score a TD or two. Beck is not an NFL QB. He's proven that.

Good call. JC would be a definite upgrade from what we have now, and he wouldn't even have cost us anything.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by mooby

Good call. JC would be a definite upgrade from what we have now, and he wouldn't even have cost us anything.

Yes, he would have. We would not have gotten the fourth rounder we got from Oakland. Nor is his skillset adequate to take a team very far. That's why the Shanahan had to go hunt, because what he was sure to provide wasn't enough to pilot an offense.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Yes, he would have. We would not have gotten the fourth rounder we got from Oakland. Nor is his skillset adequate to take a team very far. That's why the Shanahan had to go hunt, because what he was sure to provide wasn't enough to pilot an offense.

He would have cost us the 4th rounder we got from Oakland that we haven't even used yet? If he had stayed on the team, we wouldn't have spent 2nd and 4th round picks on McNabb. We've definitely lost more than we've gained in regards to the qb situation since Shanny got here.

You say his skillset's not adequate, I say his steady yet unspectacular qb play would've been better than anything McNabb, Grossman, or Beck would've done. We haven't even had average qb play in between those 3 qb's. Campbell has shown he could've provided that, even with the constant changing of coordinators. He played in a WC under Zorn too, so it's not like he wouldn't have been familiar with the concepts.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by mooby

He would have cost us the 4th rounder we got from Oakland that we haven't even used yet? If he had stayed on the team, we wouldn't have spent 2nd and 4th round picks on McNabb. We've definitely lost more than we've gained in regards to the qb situation since Shanny got here.

You say his skillset's not adequate, I say his steady yet unspectacular qb play would've been better than anything McNabb, Grossman, or Beck would've done. We haven't even had average qb play in between those 3 qb's. Campbell has shown he could've provided that, even with the constant changing of coordinators. He played in a WC under Zorn too, so it's not like he wouldn't have been familiar with the concepts.

Well said. I would have been interested to see him in the system in year two. He might not have been the best deep ball guy, but I felt he was always accurate on short to medium stuff.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Well said. I would have been interested to see him in the system in year two. He might not have been the best deep ball guy, but I felt he was always accurate on short to medium stuff.

The guy never gave any memorable impression of being good at the quick slant, quick out, curls, or any of that. The only thing he was good at was dumping it off to Cooley.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

The guy never gave any memorable impression of being good at the quick slant, quick out, curls, or any of that. The only thing he was good at was dumping it off to Cooley.

I think a TON of that was play calling. He also was not the beneficiary of a very good offensive line either.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by mooby

He would have cost us the 4th rounder we got from Oakland that we haven't even used yet? If he had stayed on the team, we wouldn't have spent 2nd and 4th round picks on McNabb. We've definitely lost more than we've gained in regards to the qb situation since Shanny got here.

You say his skillset's not adequate, I say his steady yet unspectacular qb play would've been better than anything McNabb, Grossman, or Beck would've done. We haven't even had average qb play in between those 3 qb's. Campbell has shown he could've provided that, even with the constant changing of coordinators. He played in a WC under Zorn too, so it's not like he wouldn't have been familiar with the concepts.

For the win. My thoughts exactly.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by mooby

He would have cost us the 4th rounder we got from Oakland that we haven't even used yet? If he had stayed on the team, we wouldn't have spent 2nd and 4th round picks on McNabb. We've definitely lost more than we've gained in regards to the qb situation since Shanny got here.

You say his skillset's not adequate, I say his steady yet unspectacular qb play would've been better than anything McNabb, Grossman, or Beck would've done. We haven't even had average qb play in between those 3 qb's. Campbell has shown he could've provided that, even with the constant changing of coordinators. He played in a WC under Zorn too, so it's not like he wouldn't have been familiar with the concepts.

You don't trade Campbell, you don't get that 4th rounder. He was still on the team when we got McNabb. We cut him loose after getting McNabb.

Kyle Shanahan's WCO has his its deviations from the much more "pure" WCO Holmgren passed down to Zorn.

But still not objectively good enough to make a push for a division win. Considering that New York has made him their bitch since the very beginning(well, except for one game as a rookie), he would not have been enough. In the NFL, you have to swing big in order to win big. That also means recognizing that big failiures will be part and parcel since swinging big often results in losing big.

But Campbell is most definitely inadequate. His deep balls are disgusting, they always angle out past the sidelines, making it impossible for the receiver to catch it. He also cannot back shoulder worth a damn, nor did he ever try to. And fades? Yeah, he couldn't throw that either. He is the beneficiary of one of the fastest and most athletic offenses, and a Carson Palmer who is still getting acclimated made Oakland's O actually look dangerous instead of the pretty good it was.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Yes, he would have. We would not have gotten the fourth rounder we got from Oakland. Nor is his skillset adequate to take a team very far. That's why the Shanahan had to go hunt, because what he was sure to provide wasn't enough to pilot an offense.

Right. As opposed to all the right stuff that Beck/Donny/Rex have brought to town. The point is, letting Campbell go was an 0-fer decision, just like the other 3 guys.

You really think our record in the Shanny era would be worse than it currently is if JC had started every game? I don't.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Right. As opposed to all the right stuff that Beck/Donny/Rex have brought to town. The point is, letting Campbell go was an 0-fer decision, just like the other 3 guys.

You really think our record in the Shanny era would be worse than it currently is if JC had started every game? I don't.

You want to lose some money with a certainty. Or do you choose to take a riskier action that has a small chance of major compensation, but usually results in worse outcomes. In football, you have to take the latter option. The scheme demands the QB to be able to complete certain throws, and JC has not shown any consistency on many routes on the route tree.

Understand that utility(defined as "happiness" or "satisfaction" ) from wins do not carry over to the next season. Every time a new season starts, the team gets a fresh, clean slate to write on. The fans level of happiness will be dicataed by discrete results: none if there are 7 or less wins, ambivalence with 8-8 or 9-7 if no playoffs, pretty happy if they make the playoffs, and outright exuberence if the win the Super Bowl. With Jason Campbell, it's practically a lock that he's a 7-9 or worse quarterback. I don't blame them from dumping him and trying to find some replacement. It is not ok they didn't find a good replacement, but they were correct in their assessment that Campbell had to go.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Sir Clinton: You are absolutely correct in your statement that Jason Campbell had to go once Mike Shanahan was hired. There are two main reasons for that:

1. Cambell is not a great fit in a west-coast-like offense. That is not the best match to his abilities.

2. Shanahan comes with the reputation as a QB guru and the only way to maintain that reputation was to get a QB who can perform in his system - - translation: not Jason Campbell.

Here is the problem. Once the decision was made to "ditch Campbell" it became mandatory to replace him with someone better suited to the offense who would flourish in the offense.

That led to the McNabb trade; that did not work. I happen to agree with Brian Mitchell and with Tony McGee who answered questions for the Warpath last year and both said that of the 3 QBs on last year's roster, McNabb had the best chance of succeeding in this offense. But that was not going to happen after the way the 2010 season ended and so McNabb had to go too.

Now comes the damning part. The Skins were left with Rex and Becks; the coaches had seen both of them for a year in THIS system - - and Kyle saw Rex in the Houston version of this system for a couple years before that. That leaves two possibilities:

A. They thought one of these guys was good enough to make this system work. [WRONG!]

B. They needed to go and find a free-agent who could make the system work somewhat better than these guys - - and they came up with Kellen Clemens? What, Vinny Testaverde would not answer their calls?

The huge failure here is that even though Mike Shanahan was correct in trading Jason Campbell, he has been HORRIBLY DEFICIENT in finding someone who is as good as Campbell - - let alone better than Campbell.

[vallin21]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sir Clinton: You are absolutely correct in your statement that Jason Campbell had to go once Mike Shanahan was hired. There are two main reasons for that:

1. Cambell is not a great fit in a west-coast-like offense. That is not the best match to his abilities.

2. Shanahan comes with the reputation as a QB guru and the only way to maintain that reputation was to get a QB who can perform in his system - - translation: not Jason Campbell.

Here is the problem. Once the decision was made to "ditch Campbell" it became mandatory to replace him with someone better suited to the offense who would flourish in the offense.

That led to the McNabb trade; that did not work. I happen to agree with Brian Mitchell and with Tony McGee who answered questions for the Warpath last year and both said that of the 3 QBs on last year's roster, McNabb had the best chance of succeeding in this offense. But that was not going to happen after the way the 2010 season ended and so McNabb had to go too.

Now comes the damning part. The Skins were left with Rex and Becks; the coaches had seen both of them for a year in THIS system - - and Kyle saw Rex in the Houston version of this system for a couple years before that. That leaves two possibilities:

A. They thought one of these guys was good enough to make this system work. [WRONG!]

B. They needed to go and find a free-agent who could make the system work somewhat better than these guys - - and they came up with Kellen Clemens? What, Vinny Testaverde would not answer their calls?

The huge failure here is that even though Mike Shanahan was correct in trading Jason Campbell, he has been HORRIBLY DEFICIENT in finding someone who is as good as Campbell - - let alone better than Campbell.

Well Said... Agree 100%

I had no issue with trading JC; but the problem was we replaced him with two extremely god-awful NFL QB's; 1 being a bad backup (Rex); and 1 who thinks he's better than his play indicates, and IMO shouldn't be wearing an NFL jersey (Beck).

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sir Clinton: You are absolutely correct in your statement that Jason Campbell had to go once Mike Shanahan was hired. There are two main reasons for that:

1. Cambell is not a great fit in a west-coast-like offense. That is not the best match to his abilities.

2. Shanahan comes with the reputation as a QB guru and the only way to maintain that reputation was to get a QB who can perform in his system - - translation: not Jason Campbell.

Here is the problem. Once the decision was made to "ditch Campbell" it became mandatory to replace him with someone better suited to the offense who would flourish in the offense.

That led to the McNabb trade; that did not work. I happen to agree with Brian Mitchell and with Tony McGee who answered questions for the Warpath last year and both said that of the 3 QBs on last year's roster, McNabb had the best chance of succeeding in this offense. But that was not going to happen after the way the 2010 season ended and so McNabb had to go too.

Now comes the damning part. The Skins were left with Rex and Becks; the coaches had seen both of them for a year in THIS system - - and Kyle saw Rex in the Houston version of this system for a couple years before that. That leaves two possibilities:

A. They thought one of these guys was good enough to make this system work. [WRONG!]

B. They needed to go and find a free-agent who could make the system work somewhat better than these guys - - and they came up with Kellen Clemens? What, Vinny Testaverde would not answer their calls?

The huge failure here is that even though Mike Shanahan was correct in trading Jason Campbell, he has been HORRIBLY DEFICIENT in finding someone who is as good as Campbell - - let alone better than Campbell.

I disagree with this. Campbell had a long enough tenure here without much proliferation or great successes that I think it was necessary to trade him. We GOT a 4th round pick. Not gave UP a pick like we used to. The issues created on this team by Snyder/Cerrato's control for years has left great deficiencies in many areas and could not be all corrected at once.

I for one do not think Shanny is perfect. I know he has made mistakes. But everyone does at some point. However, he can't fix this team in one shot and fans that scream and complain about what Shanny has done are stupid. Here's what he has done:

1. Stop signing large numbers of high-priced, over-aged FA's
2. Traded down in the draft to pick up more picks to inject youth into the team.
3. Traded for Carriker, giving away virtually nothing.
4. Traded for Hightower giving away virtually nothing.
5. Sign Barry Coefield, not an Albert Haynesworth type player.
6. Sign Sav Rocca, not an old, journeyman punter.

My point is this. Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't get every position fixed in one year with as many problems as we have. He didn't like the QB options in the draft and there were not many viable options in FA. Just because we didn't have a franchise QB draftee or FA pick-up doesn't mean we still shouldn't have gotten rid of Campbell. We still got better in other areas. All you negative people act pissed like we were one player away, supposed to win out this year, and be a contender. We have a long way to go and have an opportunity to draft a solid QB this year.

Let the team develop and get better instead of acting like everything should have been fixed already.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

You want to lose some money with a certainty. Or do you choose to take a riskier action that has a small chance of major compensation, but usually results in worse outcomes. In football, you have to take the latter option. The scheme demands the QB to be able to complete certain throws, and JC has not shown any consistency on many routes on the route tree.

Understand that utility(defined as "happiness" or "satisfaction" ) from wins do not carry over to the next season. Every time a new season starts, the team gets a fresh, clean slate to write on. The fans level of happiness will be dicataed by discrete results: none if there are 7 or less wins, ambivalence with 8-8 or 9-7 if no playoffs, pretty happy if they make the playoffs, and outright exuberence if the win the Super Bowl. With Jason Campbell, it's practically a lock that he's a 7-9 or worse quarterback. I don't blame them from dumping him and trying to find some replacement. It is not ok they didn't find a good replacement, but they were correct in their assessment that Campbell had to go.

My goodness you preach from the pulpit.

Who cares about the fans level of satisfaction? The coaches sure don't, that's for sure. "Discrete results," "utility," ummmm, what the heck are you even talking about?

The point is, hindsight being what it is, Campbell would have given us just as good, if not better results than the three stooges that have started since.

Arguably the biggest fallacy of this franchise during Snyder's tenure is shipping away draft picks/spending huge $ for past their prime big name vets. And that's just how Shanny kicked off his era in DC, and it was a massive failure. Would it have been so bad to keep a guy who knows the team and the organization and would cost nothing in picks or drama to keep in the fold?

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by GMScud

My goodness you preach from the pulpit.

Who cares about the fans level of satisfaction? The coaches sure don't, that's for sure. "Discrete results," "utility," ummmm, what the heck are you even talking about?

The point is, hindsight being what it is, Campbell would have given us just as good, if not better results than the three stooges that have started since.

Arguably the biggest fallacy of this franchise during Snyder's tenure is shipping away draft picks/spending huge $ for past their prime big name vets. And that's just how Shanny kicked off his era in DC, and it was a massive failure. Would it have been so bad to keep a guy who knows the team and the organization and would cost nothing in picks or drama to keep in the fold?

I wonder why I even bother trying to use simple concepts that simpletons refuse to try to understand. Someone here already went into an emotional turtle shell because of the superiority of intuition over any systemic evaluation on players. Utility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Shanahan could have traded away Campbell without having to grab McNabb. Since Campbell was in a contract year, it would be better than letting him walk for nothing or re-signing a QB whose stock was only going down. Jason Campbell was deemed insufficient to pilot this offense, and they got whatever little value he had left.