Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

To me, crunch time for the Washington Redskins is now. We are only competitive thanks to our D. Our D is only good because of the scheming and coaching of Gregg Williams. Once the D goes, we are toast. Williams will not be here much longer. Yes, he had a tough time of it in Buffalo, but he will be one of the most sought after coaches for a HC job next offseason if our D is again in the top 5. I am a fan of the Skins since 1981, and normally Gibbs would get a huge leash in my opinion as a Head Coach. The problem is, this time around Gibbs isn't just wearing the Head Coach cap, he's calling the shots on personnel as well, and we have been giving away draft picks like they were candy at Halloween. Look at the Eagles and the Pats, great teams are built through the draft, those mid round picks especially are vital. When you take into consideration Gibbs total job performance, he's leash has to be shorter. Throw in this last debacle and I just don't know.

A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.

[SkinsRock]

Originally Posted by offiss

A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.

Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning!

[offiss]

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning!

SR, high spending buisness? Gibbs is the one responsible for 92 mil tied up between 2 player, Brunell who should be a backup, and Portis who is a by product of the denver system. I understand the team part but how do you think that is going right now? And I will tell you this Gibbs better hope Brunell lights it up monday night, because if he looks anything like last year he will be answering an awful lot of questions. And if that happens I would be curious to see if he swallows his pride and go's back to Ramsey, or throws the rookie in?

[SkinsRock]

Originally Posted by offiss

SR, high spending buisness? Gibbs is the one responsible for 92 mil tied up between 2 player, Brunell who should be a backup, and Portis who is a by product of the denver system. I understand the team part but how do you think that is going right now? And I will tell you this Gibbs better hope Brunell lights it up monday night, because if he looks anything like last year he will be answering an awful lot of questions. And if that happens I would be curious to see if he swallows his pride and go's back to Ramsey, or throws the rookie in?

Gibbs wanted Brunell and told Snyder to get it done. Kudos to Mark's agent for getting him that deal. Portis had a "bad" year and still had like the eighth highest rushing yardage in 70+ years of team history. A product of the Denver system...ok.
How is it going right now? The Redskins are 1-0 and the QB that guided the scoring drives in that game is our starter. At this point, that's not too bad in my book...
But yeah, Brunell has to prove that Gibbs is right and last year was a fluke. As much as I like Ramsey, I agree with Coach Gibbs in that until Patrick finds a way to not turn the ball over, Brunell is the better man for the job.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Of course Beathard was the same guy who, while with the Chargers, traded his first round pick (no. 3 overall I believe), his second-rounder, plus San Diego's No. 1 the following year, as well as wide receiver Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp to Arizona. All for the chance to select #2 overall and get....Ryan Leaf.

So you never know

Also, we should remember that it wasn't Beathard who developed those late rounders into Pro Bowlers. Props (or would it be Dap?) to him for finding them but he wasn't the one who necessarily made them Pro Bowl, Championship winning QBs

[offiss]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Of course Beathard was the same guy who, while with the Chargers, traded his first round pick (no. 3 overall I believe), his second-rounder, plus San Diego's No. 1 the following year, as well as wide receiver Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp to Arizona. All for the chance to select #2 overall and get....Ryan Leaf.

So you never know

Also, we should remember that it wasn't Beathard who developed those late rounders into Pro Bowlers. Props (or would it be Dap?) to him for finding them but he wasn't the one who necessarily made them Pro Bowl, Championship winning QBs

Excellent point there TAF I tip my cap to you!


Although the debate coming out was who was better Leaf, or Manning? And there were plenty who thought Leaf was better, but the results do speak for themselves.

As for developing QB's I agree with you 1000% I alway's said Gibbs won [other than Theisman] with mediocre QB's, he was a master at developing QB's, which is why I have to question the Campbell pick, the guy coming out is probably mid to late second rd pick, at least that was the projection, if we drafted Campbell without giving up next years draft I would be fine I really would, I just feel Gibbs throws draft picks around like they grow on trees, for talent he's severly overated.

Somewhere George Allen is smiling with his approval.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Of course Beathard was the same guy who, while with the Chargers, traded his first round pick (no. 3 overall I believe), his second-rounder, plus San Diego's No. 1 the following year, as well as wide receiver Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp to Arizona. All for the chance to select #2 overall and get....Ryan Leaf.

There were many, many scouts, experts, and general managers who were salivating over the possiblities of Ryan Leaf. It's not like Beathard was a lone madman hellbent on getting that malcontent buffoon while everyone else was warning against it. On lots of draft boards, Leaf was ahead of Peyton Manning.

It was a crapshoot, like the draft always is, and Beathard lost.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

There were many, many scouts, experts, and general managers who were salivating over the possiblities of Ryan Leaf. It's not like Beathard was a lone madman hellbent on getting that malcontent buffoon while everyone else was warning against it. On lots of draft boards, Leaf was ahead of Peyton Manning.

It was a crapshoot, like the draft always is, and Beathard lost.

I've tried to make the same point regarding Desmond Howard.

Even the great Bobby Beathard wasn't immune to making a draft blunder. Should we hang that over his head like some to do Gibbs with Howard? While it's a blemish on the resume, you can't ignore the entire body of work.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by offiss

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs.

Gibbs won the '91 Super Bowl with Charley Casserly as the GM and Beathard was long gone.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Gibbs won the '91 Super Bowl with Charley Casserly as the GM and Beathard was long gone.

Understood but it was with a team that Beathard built.

[66skinsfan]

"We are in the midst of a crisis in Redskins Nation. Never before have I seen such in-fighting after A WIN! Its obvious that our team is in turmoil. That being said, at what point for each of you would you actually call for a coaching change?"
For me, when Sonny got benched for Kilmer, I wanted Allen to go away. But does anyone remember where the skins went that year? Gibbs demands ball control offense (we typically had the ballup to 2/3's of the game during Gibbs 1).
So starting the season with two turnovers, while Brunell looked sharp during preseason, I don't blame Gibbs for benching Ramsey. A. Brown is another visable reminder to control the ball.
Look for the rookie qb to go during garbage time.