Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

[dall-assblows]

If carlos rodgers could catch (the man can't catch a cold) he would have 5 or 6 Int and on his way to the probowl. altough he does get burnt he does cover pretty well.

[Beemnseven]

After 13 games, "mad pass rushing skills" gets you three whole sacks?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

After 13 games, "mad pass rushing skills" gets you three whole sacks?

Yeah. If Grilliams took the reins off, he'd have a lot more. Carter's gotten near the QB on lots of occasions. If our secondary was worth a crap and could give him a split second more time, he'd probably have 8 right now. But our secondary blows and lets QBs throw at will; they don't hesitate to unload and consequently Carter just misses.

Plus, we're not in too many 2nd and longs and 3rd and longs this year. We haven't been great against the run, so the DEs aren't getting to pin their ears back in obvious pass rushing situations.

Sack numbers are an incredibly misleading way to look at DE production.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah. If Grilliams took the reins off, he'd have a lot more. Carter's gotten near the QB on lots of occasions. If our secondary was worth a crap and could give him a split second more time, he'd probably have 8 right now. But our secondary blows and lets QBs throw at will; they don't hesitate to unload and consequently Carter just misses.

Plus, we're not in too many 2nd and longs and 3rd and longs this year. We haven't been great against the run, so the DEs aren't getting to pin their ears back in obvious pass rushing situations.

Sack numbers are an incredibly misleading way to look at DE production.

You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.

I think Williams teaches our line to engage the blocker. This way, if a ballcarrier comes through, said player can make the tackle. Carter's best move is the speed move. So I would agree with your 'what were they thinking' assessment of the signing (for this system at least), but going foward I think the D Line can be built AROUND Carter as opposed to in spite of him.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

I think this "reined in" philosophy has a lot less to do with Williams and more to do with Greg Blache who once said that sacks don't matter

"In 2003, Dick Jauron disciple Greg Blache told the media that "sacks don't matter" in the scheme of his defense, and his players backed up his words, finishing with a franchise-low 18."

Chicago Bears Pass Rush Revival

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.

What's hard to understand here? Williams and Blache don't let the ends chase the QB up the field on every down. They ask them to play gap control on 1st and 10 and 2nd and mediums/shorts. Take a look at the D next time, you don't see Carter and Daniels running upfield like crazy right off the snap unless it's an obvious passing situation. They kind of keep themselves in front of the tackle they're going against, that way they're able to work off the block and get to a RB coming through either gap. With all the screens being called in the league these days, having your ends just chase the QB all day is a bad idea. Your ends constantly get drawn up the field, the ball goes over their heads, and suddenly the defense has lost containment and the screen goes for a big gainer. Or on draw plays to an RB, same thing, the ends come up the field and suddenly the defense is vulnerable on the edges.

They're not asked to chase down the QB with abandon like some ends around the league are. If Freeney were a Redskin, you'd be wondering what the hell is wrong with him when he only put up 8 sacks.

In a Gregg Williams defense, you know a DE is having success by looking at his tackle numbers, not by looking at his sacks. If a DE is controlling his gaps then he'll make plenty of tackles, keeping RBs from gaining more than two yards, and forcing the defense into second and long.

If we had a secondary, we'd be able to blitz to get our sacks. We need CB SS and DT, our ends are more than adequate.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

What's hard to understand here? Williams and Blache don't let the ends chase the QB up the field on every down. They ask them to play gap control on 1st and 10 and 2nd and mediums/shorts. Take a look at the D next time, you don't see Carter and Daniels running upfield like crazy right off the snap unless it's an obvious passing situation. They kind of keep themselves in front of the tackle they're going against, that way they're able to work off the block and get to a RB coming through either gap. With all the screens being called in the league these days, having your ends just chase the QB all day is a bad idea. Your ends constantly get drawn up the field, the ball goes over their heads, and suddenly the defense has lost containment and the screen goes for a big gainer. Or on draw plays to an RB, same thing, the ends come up the field and suddenly the defense is vulnerable on the edges.

They're not asked to chase down the QB with abandon like some ends around the league are. If Freeney were a Redskin, you'd be wondering what the hell is wrong with him when he only put up 8 sacks.

In a Gregg Williams defense, you know a DE is having success by looking at his tackle numbers, not by looking at his sacks. If a DE is controlling his gaps then he'll make plenty of tackles, keeping RBs from gaining more than two yards, and forcing the defense into second and long.

If we had a secondary, we'd be able to blitz to get our sacks. We need CB SS and DT, our ends are more than adequate.

nice post

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

nice post

Thank you.

My whole thing here is that Gregg Williams' system is still pure genius. It has worked for so many years, and still will. Perhaps he got cocky and let the wrong players get away (Ryan Clark), and injuries hurt him in his secondary. But the system will still work if he can get another good safety who communicate well with Taylor, if he can get a run stopping force in the middle of the defensive line, and if he can get the CB play he needs.

Maybe that CB play comes from Springs next year, or maybe we sign/draft somebody, I dunno. But with those three things, GW will have us back on top. We don't need ends and we don't need LBs; at first glance the stats tell you that the ends and LBs are having down years. But that's more due to the weakness at other positions spilling over and affecting their play. It's still a team sport, even the great Marcus Washington is going to have a down year when he doesn't have DTs keeping linemen and fullbacks away from him.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.

Well put! Did anyone watch film on Carter before they signed him? WTF were they thinking? Good pass rushers are like gold. You just don't let them walk away if they are any good. So why does one of the worst defenses in the NFL let him walk? I just think Carter would be more effective if they used him on passing downs ONLY. He IS NOT an everydown 4-3 DE. He's just not big enough.

[T.A.P.O.A.F.O.R.]

i have this stupid, funny feeling that Carter is going to pick it up next year, so I voted DT. Even with Golston we haven't been the same in the middle this year. I have to admit I facgtored in that our draft pick is high. I would rather add a Jamal Williams than a Peppers (i know, i'm dreaming. leave me, it is all i have left).