Dwight Freeney to Skins?

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by hooskins

I am a jackass.

I said that months ago!

[GMScud]

Look at some of high (3rd round or better) draft picks we've had the past four years:

Sean Taylor (led the team in tackles this year)
Jason Campbell (led the team in TD passes this year)
Chris Cooley (led the team in catches this year)
Carlos Rodgers (led the team in passes defended this year)
Derrick Dockery (started 16 games last year)
Ladell Betts (played great in place of an injured Portis)

So while we piss away drafts picks in sickening fashion, the few we have had over the past few years look better than some of the free agency debacles we have had. We've got a chance to have the first or second defensive player in the draft in Gaines Adams or Jamaal Anderson. DRAFT A DE!!! I'd rather a 21 or 22 year old future Dwight Freeney for a fraction of the cost of a 27 or 28 year old actual Dwight Freeney.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Look at some of high (3rd round or better) draft picks we've had the past four years:

Sean Taylor (led the team in tackles this year)
Jason Campbell (led the team in TD passes this year)
Chris Cooley (led the team in catches this year)
Carlos Rodgers (led the team in passes defended this year)
Derrick Dockery (started 16 games last year)
Ladell Betts (played great in place of an injured Portis)

So while we piss away drafts picks in sickening fashion, the few we have had over the past few years look better than some of the free agency debacles we have had. We've got a chance to have the first or second defensive player in the draft in Gaines Adams or Jamaal Anderson. DRAFT A DE!!! I'd rather a 21 or 22 year old future Dwight Freeney for a fraction of the cost of a 27 or 28 year old actual Dwight Freeney.

Well, just to nitpick a little ...

Carlos Rogers? To me he's still a big, big question mark. He hasn't been the runaway success you'd hope for in a #9 overall pick. Leading this secondary in passes defended is a bit misleading don't you think?

Ladell Betts has really come into his own despite the fumbles, but the knock on that selection was that it was a huge reach to take him in the second round. Most everybody had him lasting through the fourth.

And while the front office gets a lot of credit for having their eye on a little known tight end from Utah State in Chris Cooley, the problem was that he was a 2-for-1 deal. That brings us to another problem, for a couple of the legitimate gems we've been able get in the draft, (and for what could be a dud in Rocky McIntosh) we wind up losing future draft picks to get them.

I'll give you Dockery in the 3rd round of '03. That was a solid pick. Taylor was a no-brainer. We'll have to wait and see on Campbell, though I so desperately want him to be the long-awaited franchise QB for this team.

Overall, I just don't see how anyone can say this front office has made wise use of the draft in recent years.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Well, just to nitpick a little ...

Carlos Rogers? To me he's still a big, big question mark. He hasn't been the runaway success you'd hope for in a #9 overall pick. Leading this secondary in passes defended is a bit misleading don't you think?

Ladell Betts has really come into his own despite the fumbles, but the knock on that selection was that it was a huge reach to take him in the second round. Most everybody had him lasting through the fourth.

And while the front office gets a lot of credit for having their eye on a little known tight end from Utah State in Chris Cooley, the problem was that he was a 2-for-1 deal. That brings us to another problem, for a couple of the legitimate gems we've been able get in the draft, (and for what could be a dud in Rocky McIntosh) we wind up losing future draft picks to get them.

I'll give you Dockery in the 3rd round of '03. That was a solid pick. Taylor was a no-brainer. We'll have to wait and see on Campbell, though I so desperately want him to be the long-awaited franchise QB for this team.

Overall, I just don't see how anyone can say this front office has made wise use of the draft in recent years.

Carlos Rogers did average more than a pass defended per game. Nothing spectacular, but that's not bad by any stretch of the imagination.

Team's usually get 50-75 total knockdowns in a season (I don't think the Skins got anywhere near this), and most starting corners average 15-20. Carlos is right where he needs to be.

Not bad considering that we likely didnt defense a pass until Week 7.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Carlos Rogers did average more than a pass defended per game. Nothing spectacular, but that's not bad by any stretch of the imagination.

Team's usually get 50-75 total knockdowns in a season (I don't think the Skins got anywhere near this), and most starting corners average 15-20. Carlos is right where he needs to be.

Not bad considering that we likely didnt defense a pass until Week 7.

But the problem is that knockdowns or passes defenced are not the measure of a good cornerback. I don't think rational person would try to argue that Carlos Rogers anywhere close to being the caliber player we thought he'd be.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

But the problem is that knockdowns or passes defenced are not the measure of a good cornerback. I don't think rational person would try to argue that Carlos Rogers anywhere close to being the caliber player we thought he'd be.

I agree 100% that knockdowns are a very incomplete measure of CB talent, but I don't see CR as being that far behind in his development. Sure we'd like him to make a few more plays, but it looks like hes going to grow into a consistent starter for us for many years, and that would satisfy me.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

But the problem is that knockdowns or passes defenced are not the measure of a good cornerback. I don't think rational person would try to argue that Carlos Rogers anywhere close to being the caliber player we thought he'd be.

I agree! He's got a long way to go.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Well, just to nitpick a little ...

Carlos Rogers? To me he's still a big, big question mark. He hasn't been the runaway success you'd hope for in a #9 overall pick. Leading this secondary in passes defended is a bit misleading don't you think?

Ladell Betts has really come into his own despite the fumbles, but the knock on that selection was that it was a huge reach to take him in the second round. Most everybody had him lasting through the fourth.

And while the front office gets a lot of credit for having their eye on a little known tight end from Utah State in Chris Cooley, the problem was that he was a 2-for-1 deal. That brings us to another problem, for a couple of the legitimate gems we've been able get in the draft, (and for what could be a dud in Rocky McIntosh) we wind up losing future draft picks to get them.

I'll give you Dockery in the 3rd round of '03. That was a solid pick. Taylor was a no-brainer. We'll have to wait and see on Campbell, though I so desperately want him to be the long-awaited franchise QB for this team.

Overall, I just don't see how anyone can say this front office has made wise use of the draft in recent years.

Couple of things:
I didn't say Carlos Rodgers was a stud, but he did have 17 passes defensed, which did lead the team, however misleading it may be.

JC did lead the team in TD passes, had a 10-6 TD/INT ratio, and progressed nicely throughout his time as a starter. Not bad for a guy who since his freshman year at Auburn has had 6 offensive coordinators in 6 years. Crazy to think this will be his first time since HIGH SCHOOL with the same offense two seasons in a row.

Cooley has been arguably one of the most underrated offensive players in all of football over the past couple years, so the fact that he was a 2-1 deal doesn't bother me one bit.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that for as many times as the Skins have stupidly pissed away draft picks, we do have some solid successes when we hang on to the higher end (rds 1-3) picks. And even though we traded picks to get JC, how worth it will it be if he throws 25+ TD's this year??

Other than a TBD Carlos Rodgers, I would say every one of the picks I listed earlier was well worth it. Overall we HAVE NOT made wise use of the draft, but some of the guys we've selected have become our "core guys" as Gibbs loves to say....

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Cooley has been arguably one of the most underrated offensive players in all of football over the past couple years, so the fact that he was a 2-1 deal doesn't bother me one bit.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that for as many times as the Skins have stupidly pissed away draft picks, we do have some solid successes when we hang on to the higher end (rds 1-3) picks. And even though we traded picks to get JC, how worth it will it be if he throws 25+ TD's this year??

Other than a TBD Carlos Rodgers, I would say every one of the picks I listed earlier was well worth it. Overall we HAVE NOT made wise use of the draft, but some of the guys we've selected have become our "core guys" as Gibbs loves to say....

I know Cooley is a fan favorite and it may be against the sacred honor of a Redskin fan to criticize him, but I need to see more consistency before I anoint him the way some people have. Perhaps that will come with more experience and stability at quarterback. But to say he's one of the most "underrated", I don't know, to me, he's a tad on the overrated side.

Right now, I'd put him near the top of the second tier of tight ends in the league, if they were divided into three. But guys like Antonio Gates, Alge Crumpler, Tony Gonzales, Jason Witten, Dallas Clark, Todd Heap are by far more complete tight ends, and hence, much more of a threat than he is.

When he gets into the top tier, then maybe we can say he was worth that extra 2nd round pick. But as of now, he's a good player who needs a lot of work. In my mind, he's one of the exhibits of how teams shouldn't use multiple draft picks to nab players that they really like.

[GMScud]

I'll give you Gates and Gonzalez. They are bar none the two best ends in the league.

But if you look at the stats over the past three seasons, Cooley has as many TD's as Crumpler (19), and more than Witten (13), Clark (13), and Heap (16).

His # of catches over that time (165) is waaay more than Clark (92) and right on par with Witten, Heap, and Crumpler.

As far as yards go, Crumpler and Witten have averaged about 200 yds a year more over that time, but Cooley is nearly identical to Heap and has 600 more yards than Clark.

And finally, remember that all of these guys have been in league at least one season longer than Cools, most of them even longer. Plus Cooley is a locker room favorite, has maybe the best hands on our team, and is phenomenal after the catch. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anointing the kid, but I think he's worth what we gave up to get him.

[SkinEmAll]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I know Cooley is a fan favorite and it may be against the sacred honor of a Redskin fan to criticize him, but I need to see more consistency before I anoint him the way some people have. Perhaps that will come with more experience and stability at quarterback. But to say he's one of the most "underrated", I don't know, to me, he's a tad on the overrated side.

Right now, I'd put him near the top of the second tier of tight ends in the league, if they were divided into three. But guys like Antonio Gates, Alge Crumpler, Tony Gonzales, Jason Witten, Dallas Clark, Todd Heap are by far more complete tight ends, and hence, much more of a threat than he is.

When he gets into the top tier, then maybe we can say he was worth that extra 2nd round pick. But as of now, he's a good player who needs a lot of work. In my mind, he's one of the exhibits of how teams shouldn't use multiple draft picks to nab players that they really like.

Oh really?! so just what exactly does he need to do to become 'top tier' in your mind? Yes he is a fan favorite as well as one of my favs, but all that aside your assesment of Cooley has me a little baffeled. And how can you say he is overrated? You never really hear him mentioned anywhere, besides here. And consistency? I know hes not 'perfect', but I think he needs to be used more consistentantly. Hes open on sooooo many plays its not even funny. The kid has a knack for getting open. And speaking of 'overrated', what does clark, witten or heap for that matter have and do that differently than Cooley? Just curious. And no I dont think you broke the sacred honor, but I do think your in the minority.

[SkinEmAll]

is funnily really a word?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SkinEmAll

Oh really?! so just what exactly does he need to do to become 'top tier' in your mind? Yes he is a fan favorite as well as one of my favs, but all that aside your assesment of Cooley has me a little baffeled. And how can you say he is overrated? You never really hear him mentioned anywhere, besides here. And consistency? I know hes not 'perfect', but I think he needs to be used more consistentantly. Hes open on sooooo many plays its not even funny. The kid has a knack for getting open. And speaking of 'overrated', what does clark, witten or heap for that matter have and do that differently than Cooley? Just curious. And no I dont think you broke the sacred honor, but I do think your in the minority.

Oh boy. I knew I'd get into trouble with this one.

Cooley is a good player. I tend to think we as Skins fans heap just a bit more praise on him than he's probably worth, that's all. If you disagree, fine.

It's something I really can't pinpoint with numbers, as GMScud has taken the time to do -- I just don't think he has "it" yet. That's not to say he'll never get there. There were times last season when he appeared out of sync, didn't really have much of a presence on the field -- like he was lost here and there.

I don't think he's at the point where we can unequivocally say yes, he was worth two picks, and he's the greatest thing since spray-on butter.

[Redskin]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I know Cooley is a fan favorite and it may be against the sacred honor of a Redskin fan to criticize him, but I need to see more consistency before I anoint him the way some people have. Perhaps that will come with more experience and stability at quarterback. But to say he's one of the most "underrated", I don't know, to me, he's a tad on the overrated side.

Right now, I'd put him near the top of the second tier of tight ends in the league, if they were divided into three. But guys like Antonio Gates, Alge Crumpler, Tony Gonzales, Jason Witten, Dallas Clark, Todd Heap are by far more complete tight ends, and hence, much more of a threat than he is.

When he gets into the top tier, then maybe we can say he was worth that extra 2nd round pick. But as of now, he's a good player who needs a lot of work. In my mind, he's one of the exhibits of how teams shouldn't use multiple draft picks to nab players that they really like.

Heres what I dont like, Cooley was tied with clark and heap in TD's, pretty good for the wish-washy QB situation we had. Oh and Gonzales had 1 less then him. Cooley's other stats are right up there with the top too. He goes out there and plays with his all every game and to say he is not top tier well, shame on you.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I know Cooley is a fan favorite and it may be against the sacred honor of a Redskin fan to criticize him, but I need to see more consistency before I anoint him the way some people have. Perhaps that will come with more experience and stability at quarterback. But to say he's one of the most "underrated", I don't know, to me, he's a tad on the overrated side.

Right now, I'd put him near the top of the second tier of tight ends in the league, if they were divided into three. But guys like Antonio Gates, Alge Crumpler, Tony Gonzales, Jason Witten, Dallas Clark, Todd Heap are by far more complete tight ends, and hence, much more of a threat than he is.

When he gets into the top tier, then maybe we can say he was worth that extra 2nd round pick. But as of now, he's a good player who needs a lot of work. In my mind, he's one of the exhibits of how teams shouldn't use multiple draft picks to nab players that they really like.

I think you are giving a lot of those guys too much credit. Heap and Crumpler are great all around players and Gonzo is a pretty good blocker to go with his receiving skills. However Antonio Gates, Dallas Clark, and Jason Witten are receivers in a TE's body. Witten is the best blocker of the three, but I'd take Cooley any day over him.

Cooley came into the league with blocking projected to be his weakness, but he has quickly become one of the better blocking TE's in the league. Cooley brings something to the table that no other TE in the league does in his ability to break tackles going north and south after the catch. Cooley has led TE in YAC per catch for two straight seasons now. This is a very important stat, and lets you know that we don't just have any old TE.

I might take him over any other TE in the league. Dead serious, no blinders on. He may be the best all around TE in the game today.