BitterGate

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

The fact that you think how long the war is waged is irrelevant shocks me. You may not believe in the war but you lack vision and empathy. Vision required to see that there can't be a happy ending to the war no matter when it actually ends. Empathy required to identify with the soldiers who are serving multiple tours of duty, 15 month deployments and face stop loss.

I am spineless.

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

There is a huge difference between preemptive war and a war with broad support that doesn't consist of just us and the "coalition of the willing." The fact is we are all alone, nothing has changed in 5 years and nothing seems to be changing. You give me a good proposal for ending the war in good terms and I'm there with you. I suspect once the dipshit in the white house and his heir apparent are out of the picture maybe we can get some international help that allows us to walk away. We might actually start talking to people, imagine that?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

There is a huge difference between preemptive war and a war with broad support that doesn't consist of just us and the "coalition of the willing." The fact is we are all alone, nothing has changed in 5 years and nothing seems to be changing. You give me a good proposal for ending the war in good terms and I'm there with you. I suspect once the dipshit in the white house and his heir apparent are out of the picture maybe we can get some international help that allows us to walk away. We might actually start talking to people, imagine that?

I think the administration has, to some degree, realized that it's "you're either with us or against us" mentality isn't working. Privately, our government has been negotiating with the Iranians to stabilize Iraq. That's a big step in the right direction.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I think the administration has, to some degree, realized that it's "you're either with us or against us" mentality isn't working. Privately, our government has been negotiating with the Iranians to stabilize Iraq. That's a big step in the right direction.

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

Here's one link

U.S., Iran Plan Talks on Pacifying Iraq - washingtonpost.com

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.

Didn't El President say in his recent speech that the greatest threat America faces is Al-Qaeda and Iran? I guess he still wants to pound sand.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

Didn't El President say in his recent speech that the greatest threat America faces is Al-Qaeda and Iran? I guess he still wants to pound sand.

I wouldn't be surprised if he did so and I don't see the point in making those kinds of statements. Then again, Iran is not sitting quietly singing America's praises.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.

I think the Iranians can be dealt with but it requires diplomacy of the highest order. I wouldn't trust the State Depatment with it. They would have to believe that the person they are dealing with represents the highest authority. If they suspect for one second that they are dealing with a State Department so and so, then it's a waste of time. They want to be respected. They are not Arab and they have shown an affinity fo reason in the past. The real problem is their out and out hostility towards Jews. No diplomatic advances will be possible until they climb down from the idea that they can attain a Jew-free Palestine. Arabs have shown no willingness to do so, but I think Persians could be persuaded under the right circumstances.

This was the great failure of the neo-cons. The failure to seize the opportunity to drive a wedge between the Arabs and the Iranians. Nixon would have seen it immediately. He would have had a love fest (albeit extremely awkward) with Khameni. Unfortunately, there are no mulligans in foreign relations and Nixon is dead.

Fictional Nixon and Helms

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.

Does anyone else find this somewhat ironic given the pounding Obama took for making the same suggestion?
Obama's Foreign-Policy Pledge Sparks Criticism From Rivals - WSJ.com

Two points:
1. Everyone (dems and Rs) pounded Obama - this is not a shot at just Bush.
2. I realize Obama's comments were far more sweeping, and involved "no-concession" open doors to a number of countries we have no relationship with right now.

I'm not an Obama supporter (or foe), but I found this interesting.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Does anyone else find this somewhat ironic given the pounding Obama took for making the same suggestion?
Obama's Foreign-Policy Pledge Sparks Criticism From Rivals - WSJ.com

Two points:
1. Everyone (dems and Rs) pounded Obama - this is not a shot at just Bush.
2. I realize Obama's comments were far more sweeping, and involved "no-concession" open doors to a number of countries we have no relationship with right now.

I'm not an Obama supporter (or foe), but I found this interesting.

The problem I have with Obama and I could be off on this but I feel that he thinks that we could all just become friends. Well some groups, countries, etc.. do not want to be our friends and if we let our guard down they will pounce on us. They want us dead. Say what you want about Bush and how he has handled things but on 9/11 he realized that we are at war against certain groups and has done everything he feels he needs to do to protect us against another attack. I'm not saying I agree with everything he has done but who ever is in office needs to realize that not everyone wants to be our friends and would perfer if we where dead. When we forget this is when they will hit us again. We have to get it right 100% of the time and they just need to get it right once.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

I used to work with a guy who escaped from Cambodia and the stories he would tell me were unbelievable. Most of us only experience danger at the movies. Then you meet someone who lived a movie and your first reaction is to call bullshit. Then you think, "This guy's a database specialist that makes twice what I do and drives a brand new Lexus. He has no need to impress me."

Regardless of what happens in this election, I think we will honor our committment to Iraq. If the Democrats attain power, they will maintain some presence and the press will dutifully change the subject so that Baraq or Hillary don't suffer for the fact that they end up doing the same thing McCain will do. Our troops in Iraq will get about as much media attention as our troops in Korea or Bosnia or Germany. The thing that's amazing is that the people who are really in the know all understand that this is the game. They rant and rave for Bush to do something (withdraw) that they would never ask a Democrat to do. I'm talking about NBC, ABC, CBS, The NYT, the LAT, WaPo. If I could bet on these things, my troubles would be over very quickly. I can see it as though it's already happened.