Obama Care

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Here's John Stossel on Canada's "free" health care system.

This stuck out to me:
In America, people wait in emergency rooms, too, but it's much worse in Canada. If you're sick enough to be admitted, the average wait is 23 hours.

and

More than a million and a half Canadians say they can't find a family doctor. Some towns hold lotteries to determine who gets a doctor.

But while you attempted to educate on the down fall of universal healthcare, I bet your attempts were futile. It really shows us it's a dumb idea, but people just won't listen. It's a shame really. No matter how much you bring that horse to the water, it's still the horses responsibility to drink. Nothing we can do about it.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by jsarno

This stuck out to me:
In America, people wait in emergency rooms, too, but it's much worse in Canada. If you're sick enough to be admitted, the average wait is 23 hours.

and

More than a million and a half Canadians say they can't find a family doctor. Some towns hold lotteries to determine who gets a doctor.

But while you attempted to educate on the down fall of universal healthcare, I bet your attempts were futile. It really shows us it's a dumb idea, but people just won't listen. It's a shame really. No matter how much you bring that horse to the water, it's still the horses responsibility to drink. Nothing we can do about it.

Yeah, I think most people who favor universal care just look at it from the standpoint that it's one less bill they'll have to pay. Unfortunately, the idea has been fostered for many, many years that medical care is the responsibility of someone else; your employer, or the government -- but certainly not you.

[saden1]

Hello folks,

This Canadian doctor shortage isn't due to universal healthcare but many factors. Canada is suffering from medical practitioners shortage just as we are from nursing shortage. It just so happens ours isn't as pronounced yet. Please believe this is going to be a problem for us going forward whether we have or don't have universal healthcare. Play "Spot the Foreigner" next time you're at the doctor's office. Also, a friend of mines mother lives in the boondocks and she has to travel 2.5 hours to Seattle to see a doctor so I wonder if I can blame this on the current system.

For **** sake people, you guys are smarter than this.

[firstdown]

I'm sure the shortage of doctors has nothing to do with pay and males able to find higher paying jobs in the private market.

[firstdown]

Obama's plan is allready working (well not working that good) in Massachusetts but when I posted this in another thread people who argue for un health care seem to ignore post like this. I guess its hard to argue against facts of how its not working in Massachusetts when the numbers show its actually driving up cost and is now more then private ins. Then you just need to take a look at Ca. and their 26 billion in dept from social programs just like this but why let facts get in the way.

The proponents of the Massachusetts reforms
also promised that those reforms would
reduce health care costs. Governor Romney
said that “the cost of health care would be reduced”
and the plan would make health insurance
“affordable” for every Massachusetts citizen.


27

Supporters suggested that the reforms


would reduce the price of individual insurance

policies by 25–40 percent.



28

In reality, insurance premiums rose by 7.4

percent in 2007, 8–12 percent in 2008, and are
expected to rise 9 percent this year.



29 By comparison,


nationwide insurance costs rose by

6.1 percent in 2007, just 4.7 percent in 2008,
and are projected to increase 6.4 percent this
year.



30 On average, health insurance costs


$16,897 for a family of four in Massachusetts,


compared to $12,700 nationally.

31



Boy that sounds just like what the Dems and Obama are saying right now.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf

I know this was not the best copy and paste but for the people who feel so strong about goverment run ins. why do you think it will be any different in cost then what happened here. Then just mane a large federal programe that is not over budget or running in the negative.

[budw38]

Great posts Firstdown !!

[saden1]

Here something interesting for you folks who think the decline in the number of people going into medicine in Canada is due to pay:

On average a Senior Software Engineer with 5 years of experience in Vancouver B.C. makes C$72,750 (roughly $62,744), and the average Senior Software Engineer in Seattle with 5 years of experience makes $90,275. What this means is that a Canadian Sr. Software Engineers makes roughly $27,531 (44%) less than his American counterpart.

On average a Family Physician/Doctor in Canada makes C$116,757 (roughly $100,704), and the average Family Physician/Doctor in United States makes $135,454. What this means is that a Canadian Family Physician/Doctor makes roughly $34,750 (35%) less than his American counterpart.

Why take anyone's word for it if you can do the research yourself? On the real tip though, the field of medicine is one of the highest paying fields there is regardless where you are in the world.

[firstdown]

So I guess I can now say I make more then the average doctor. I would have never guessed that by the doctors I know.

[Beemnseven]

Saden, let me ask you this; and keep in mind, we aren't talking about conservative or liberal viewpoints, this is just plain old common sense -- what happens to the quality of anything thing that is "free" ??

On average, is a public defender as good as an attorney that you pay for out of your own pocket?

Do you know any veterans? Ask any of them what they think of the service they have received at a veterans hospital.

If McDonalds started giving away free Big Macs, what would the lines be like at Mickey D's? And what would happen to the quality of the Big Macs?

Again, forget ideology -- just think about street smarts. You get what you pay for, right?

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by saden1

Hello folks,

This Canadian doctor shortage isn't due to universal healthcare but many factors. Canada is suffering from medical practitioners shortage just as we are from nursing shortage. It just so happens ours isn't as pronounced yet. Please believe this is going to be a problem for us going forward whether we have or don't have universal healthcare. Play "Spot the Foreigner" next time you're at the doctor's office. Also, a friend of mines mother lives in the boondocks and she has to travel 2.5 hours to Seattle to see a doctor so I wonder if I can blame this on the current system.

For **** sake people, you guys are smarter than this.

Try giving nearly 50 million more Americans insurance in a short time span and watch how quickly it becomes pronounced.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Try giving nearly 50 million more Americans insurance in a short time span and watch how quickly it becomes pronounced.

I generally love your posts GM (even though I am obviously to the left of you, your reasoning is sound and your command of your mother language impressive) but this is an absurd argument. If you are implying that we should keep a large number of people uninsured so as to protect the quality of care for those that do have it, and I think that you are, well I mean, that's a pretty unpalatable position to take.

And First, well it is true that the MA plan is rife with problems, you need to get something straight - it was universally derided by the left as a give away to the insurance companies, a cop out compromise by Romney and company that would do nothing to control costs (which it hasn't). So its failures do not represent the last word on health care reform.

And Beems, there are plenty of services that we give away for free in this country that still manage to be high quality. Had your house catch on fire recently?

[budw38]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Saden, let me ask you this; and keep in mind, we aren't talking about conservative or liberal viewpoints, this is just plain old common sense -- what happens to the quality of anything thing that is "free" ??

On average, is a public defender as good as an attorney that you pay for out of your own pocket?

Do you know any veterans? Ask any of them what they think of the service they have received at a veterans hospital.

If McDonalds started giving away free Big Macs, what would the lines be like at Mickey D's? And what would happen to the quality of the Big Macs?

Again, forget ideology -- just think about street smarts. You get what you pay for, right?

AWESOME POST !!! How many people would their kid into a " dump " because the sign read " free root canals " Dr. Spock , as opposed to their family Dentist where a Co - Pay was needed ....

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I generally love your posts GM (even though I am obviously to the left of you, your reasoning is sound and your command of your mother language impressive) but this is an absurd argument. If you are implying that we should keep a large number of people uninsured so as to protect the quality of care for those that do have it, and I think that you are, well I mean, that's a pretty unpalatable position to take.

And First, well it is true that the MA plan is rife with problems, you need to get something straight - it was universally derided by the left as a give away to the insurance companies, a cop out compromise by Romney and company that would do nothing to control costs (which it hasn't). So its failures do not represent the last word on health care reform.

And Beems, there are plenty of services that we give away for free in this country that still manage to be high quality. Had your house catch on fire recently?

Not what I'm saying at all. Saden's comment that I bolded in my response was about how Canada is visibly suffering from a shortage of medical practitioners, similar to how here in the USA we have a big shortage of nurses. However that nursing shortage, according to Saden, isn't as pronounced as Canada's practitioner shortage. I agree with that.

My point was our nursing shortage will certainly be much more "pronounced" under Obama care than it currently is today. Nowhere did I say we should keep 50 million people without insurance simply to stave off the pronouncement of said shortage.

EDIT: There are numerous reasons I dislike Obama care. The dilution of quality of care is just one of them.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Saden, let me ask you this; and keep in mind, we aren't talking about conservative or liberal viewpoints, this is just plain old common sense -- what happens to the quality of anything thing that is "free" ??

On average, is a public defender as good as an attorney that you pay for out of your own pocket?

Do you know any veterans? Ask any of them what they think of the service they have received at a veterans hospital.

If McDonald's started giving away free Big Macs, what would the lines be like at Mickey D's? And what would happen to the quality of the Big Macs?

Again, forget ideology -- just think about street smarts. You get what you pay for, right?

You know common sense is subjective right?

1. Public defense done right is every bit as good as private defense. You knew this, right?
2. My cousin is a nurse at a veteran hospital in Phoenix AZ. She tells me they provide service comparable to that of the private sector and that they are behind none when it comes to bionics research. The most recent Survey of Veterans can be found here, my cousin might be full of shit and I'm you'll wade through it and tell me if you find something interesting, right?
3. McDonald's is really a bad example of a private company that sells quality products. They are in the business of cutting corners to maximize profits and their food is not fit to serve a dog. This is common sense and I am sure you understand where I am coming from, right?

For a brief moment I thought I knew what you were getting at but then I realized you and I don't think alike.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Not what I'm saying at all. Saden's comment that I bolded in my response was about how Canada is visibly suffering from a shortage of medical practitioners, similar to how here in the USA we have a big shortage of nurses. However that nursing shortage, according to Saden, isn't as pronounced as Canada's practitioner shortage. I agree with that.

My point was our nursing shortage will certainly be much more "pronounced" under Obama care than it currently is today. Nowhere did I say we should keep 50 million people without insurance simply to stave off the pronouncement of said shortage.

EDIT: There are numerous reasons I dislike Obama care. The dilution of quality of care is just one of them.

What I am also saying is that sometime in the next decade or two the United States will also have doctor shortage much like the current nursing shortage if not worse. It will be pronounced and painful whether we have mostly a private healthcare system or mostly a public healthcare system. Regardless of what we have it doesn't look good (a must read).