Utah killer executed by firing squad

JoeRedskin · 06-22-2010, 04:27 PM

I have mixed feelings on the death penalty filled with subtle complexities. Primarily, I oppose “revenge killing” because I agree with Lotus that killing, whether by an individual or the State, done to exact revenge on another individual ultimately creates more hate. Throughout history, societies have recognized the destructive nature of such killings and have moved away from them in order to advance. As I have said before, Hammurabi’s Code – “an eye for an eye” - was actually a limitation on revenge killing because prior to that it had been “your arm, your leg and your child for my wife’s eye”.

At the same time, I generally agree with Schneed that a society can decide to deny the right of life in the interest of justice. We as a society are entitled to and expect that our government to provide “justice”. Again, look through history at most revolutions and civil wars, populations will put up with tyrants/dictators, etc. but not injustice. The right to deny life is just another one of those balancing acts between individual liberty and group rights that exist when groups of people live in civil society.

The question for me is when does societal “justice” become societal “revenge”. I would suggest that often the death penalty, as it is applied in this country, is unjust as it seems that you may or may not get the death penalty depending on who you murder. Kill a hobo and get life in prison, kill a prominent pretty white girl, get the death penalty. This smacks more of revenge killing, i.e. we, as a society, valued the life of the pretty white girl more than the life of the hobo so we exact more “justice” from you for killing our favored individual. In such a case, it is not the denial of life that cries for justice – it is the denial of a specific life.

So, on one hand, I favor a fairly draconian application, you commit murder (i.e. you kill some one with “malice aforethought” or with such a “wanton disregard for others safety” that is the equivalent of malice).

On the other hand, I disagree with Schneed’s “cost of doing business” argument. To me, society’s justification for imposing the ultimate penalty is dependent upon the certainty that the criminal has committed the ultimate crime. Imposing the death penalty upon someone when we cannot be 100% sure the person is guilty borders on “wanton disregard for others safety” and undercuts the very argument for society’s “just” application of the death penalty (When an individual intentional kills someone and denies the victim of their right to life, it is wrong; BUT, if we intentionally kill someone who has not committed such a crime that’s just a big ole’ “oops” too bad so sad. To me that is a blatantly hypocritical stance - circle back to unjust and revenge killings).

Ultimately, and in my opinion, justice is something we as a society decide and for which we are all answerable. I generally agree with Schneed that we, as a society, can decide that it is “just” to deny an individual his right to life. At the same time, in the name of justice, this penalty is reserved for those we are 100% sure are guilty. However, if we are 100% sure they are guilty of murder, it does not matter who you murdered - you will die. Anything other than this strikes me as unjust and/or a form of revenge killing.

firstdown · 06-22-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Yeah, but bacon is good. Pork chops are good.

Everything is better with bacon.

FRPLG · 06-22-2010, 04:36 PM

As an aside...bravo for a rather civilized discussion on a serious hot button issue. Please no one be a jackass and ruin this.

JoeRedskin · 06-22-2010, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.

Only if the execution is seen as unjust. Otherwise, and IMHO, a society's just killing is the ultimate condemnation of the murderer.

"Revenge shall be mine sayeth the Lord" but "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". We have the right to govern and decide justice amongst ourselves.

Slingin Sammy 33 · 06-22-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.

I don't recall any murders related to, or in retaliation of, a court ordered death sentence.

On a scale of 0 to 10 for a culture of killing, with a 0 being raising/nurturing baby bunnies and 10 being an MS-13 member at age 11, the death sentence is about a .01 in terms of contributing to a "culture of killing".

Trample the Elderly · 06-22-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.

When this thing goes down you might have to change your point of view. If not you'll be fodder.

MTK · 06-22-2010, 05:13 PM

When what goes down?

Trample the Elderly · 06-22-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

When what goes down?

You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.

JoeRedskin · 06-22-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.

Ahh yes, the obligatory prophet of doom: "The World is Ending Repent Now!!"

or, in TTE is case: "The USA is ending, stock you bomb shelter now!!"

Trample the Elderly · 06-22-2010, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Ahh yes, the obligatory prophet of doom: "The World is Ending Repent Now!!"

or, in TTE is case: "The USA is ending, stock you bomb shelter now!!"

7.62 rounds and rice to be exact.

Trample the Elderly · 06-22-2010, 05:53 PM

I was thinking, I've actually have more respect for this guy than many of the people I meet. He said he took people's lives with a gun, so he wanted to be killed by a gun. Live by the gun, die by the gun. That takes some balls.

MTK · 06-22-2010, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.

Thought you said you weren't into fairy tales?

Trample the Elderly · 06-22-2010, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Thought you said you weren't into fairy tales?

The Federal government is going to default on it's commitments.

If we didn't own Moodys our credit rating would be junk.

It is impossible to pay off this debt, ever.

We've been overtaken by China in manufacturing.

We're stuck in endless wars.

Sooner or later the Chinese are going to un-peg the Yuan from the dollar, probably when they no longer need our market to dump their cheap products.

Many countries want to dump the dollar as a reserve currency. The Russians introduced new world currency just recently.

Our number one export is arms.

Our number one cash crop is marijuana.

How is this a fairy tale?

SmootSmack · 06-22-2010, 06:14 PM

How do you run a country into the grown?

Trample the Elderly · 06-22-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How do you run a country into the grown?

Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and sub-par schools.

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

Tax the middle class into oblivion.

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.

06-22-2010, 04:27 PM	#76
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 62 Posts: 10,401	Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad I have mixed feelings on the death penalty filled with subtle complexities. Primarily, I oppose “revenge killing” because I agree with Lotus that killing, whether by an individual or the State, done to exact revenge on another individual ultimately creates more hate. Throughout history, societies have recognized the destructive nature of such killings and have moved away from them in order to advance. As I have said before, Hammurabi’s Code – “an eye for an eye” - was actually a limitation on revenge killing because prior to that it had been “your arm, your leg and your child for my wife’s eye”. At the same time, I generally agree with Schneed that a society can decide to deny the right of life in the interest of justice. We as a society are entitled to and expect that our government to provide “justice”. Again, look through history at most revolutions and civil wars, populations will put up with tyrants/dictators, etc. but not injustice. The right to deny life is just another one of those balancing acts between individual liberty and group rights that exist when groups of people live in civil society. The question for me is when does societal “justice” become societal “revenge”. I would suggest that often the death penalty, as it is applied in this country, is unjust as it seems that you may or may not get the death penalty depending on who you murder. Kill a hobo and get life in prison, kill a prominent pretty white girl, get the death penalty. This smacks more of revenge killing, i.e. we, as a society, valued the life of the pretty white girl more than the life of the hobo so we exact more “justice” from you for killing our favored individual. In such a case, it is not the denial of life that cries for justice – it is the denial of a specific life. So, on one hand, I favor a fairly draconian application, you commit murder (i.e. you kill some one with “malice aforethought” or with such a “wanton disregard for others safety” that is the equivalent of malice). On the other hand, I disagree with Schneed’s “cost of doing business” argument. To me, society’s justification for imposing the ultimate penalty is dependent upon the certainty that the criminal has committed the ultimate crime. Imposing the death penalty upon someone when we cannot be 100% sure the person is guilty borders on “wanton disregard for others safety” and undercuts the very argument for society’s “just” application of the death penalty (When an individual intentional kills someone and denies the victim of their right to life, it is wrong; BUT, if we intentionally kill someone who has not committed such a crime that’s just a big ole’ “oops” too bad so sad. To me that is a blatantly hypocritical stance - circle back to unjust and revenge killings). Ultimately, and in my opinion, justice is something we as a society decide and for which we are all answerable. I generally agree with Schneed that we, as a society, can decide that it is “just” to deny an individual his right to life. At the same time, in the name of justice, this penalty is reserved for those we are 100% sure are guilty. However, if we are 100% sure they are guilty of murder, it does not matter who you murdered - you will die. Anything other than this strikes me as unjust and/or a form of revenge killing. __________________ Strap it up, hold onto the ball, and let’s go.

06-22-2010, 04:36 PM	#78
FRPLG MVP Join Date: May 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 10,164	Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad As an aside...bravo for a rather civilized discussion on a serious hot button issue. Please no one be a jackass and ruin this.

06-22-2010, 05:13 PM	#82
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 52 Posts: 99,832	Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad When what goes down? __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

06-22-2010, 05:53 PM	#86
Trample the Elderly Playmaker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Three Chopt Virginia Age: 47 Posts: 2,906	Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad I was thinking, I've actually have more respect for this guy than many of the people I meet. He said he took people's lives with a gun, so he wanted to be killed by a gun. Live by the gun, die by the gun. That takes some balls. __________________ A funny thing happened on the way to the temple. The moneychangers bought the priesthood.

06-22-2010, 06:14 PM	#89
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad How do you run a country into the grown? __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

Utah killer executed by firing squad

Debating with the enemy