Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Panthers)

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

How many playoff wins does he have w/out John Elway? Not saying the guy is bad or even average. But I'm not ready to say MS is a great head coach. There are only a select few that I would say that about.

How many Belichick have without Tom Brady? How many did Bill Walsh have without Montana and Young? How many did Tony Dungy have without Peyton Manning?

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many Belichick have without Tom Brady? How many did Bill Walsh have without Montana and Young? How many did Tony Dungy have without Peyton Manning?

Seriously. I hate the "what has he done without Elway" argument. What if our next qb turned out to be as good as Elway? Would fans start up a "yeah, well what has he done when he didn't have (insert HOF caliber passer here)?" argument even if we were winning lots of games as a result of the excellent coach/passer combo?

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many Belichick have without Tom Brady? How many did Bill Walsh have without Montana and Young? How many did Tony Dungy have without Peyton Manning?

All fair points Smoot. But Dungy had some very good TB teams and he had them within a few points of a SB. He's the man behind the Tampa 2 defense that's used around the league by so many teams. Bill Walsh was a GREAT head coach who put a stamp on the league in so many ways. BB failed in Cleveland but he was the coordinator of some of the best defenses the league has ever seen.

After seeing MS since he's been here, I just don't put him on the level of the great head coaches that I've seen.....Gibbs 1, Walsh and there probably a few I'm leaving out.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many Belichick have without Tom Brady? How many did Bill Walsh have without Montana and Young? How many did Tony Dungy have without Peyton Manning?

Preach.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many Belichick have without Tom Brady? How many did Bill Walsh have without Montana and Young? How many did Tony Dungy have without Peyton Manning?

Exactly! How many did Joe Gibbs have without Joe Theismann......oh yeah....nevermind.

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How many Belichick have without Tom Brady? How many did Bill Walsh have without Montana and Young? How many did Tony Dungy have without Peyton Manning?

Ppl get off of MS he's the best HC the redskins have had since Gibbs 1.. He just doesn't have the right amount of talent to win week in and out, It's not that hard to figure out folks..

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

Ppl get off of MS he's the best HC the redskins have had since Gibbs 1.. He just doesn't have the right amount of talent to win week in and out, It's not that hard to figure out folks..

Maybe he should fire his personnel guy who isn't getting him the talent?

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe he should fire his personnel guy who isn't getting him the talent?

It's been 2 seasons tripp, this team was one of the worst talent wise 3 years ago.. Hey I'm w you I hate losing and shit is getting old but even though I rant and rave and say F the skins during the game I love em like a family member and I'll be patient as I've been for 20 years.. It'll pay off

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

It's been 2 seasons tripp, this team was one of the worst talent wise 3 years ago.. Hey I'm w you I hate losing and shit is getting old but even though I rant and rave and say F the skins during the game I love em like a family member and I'll be patient as I've been for 20 years.. It'll pay off

Forget three years ago, this team is one of the worst talented now.

I don't mind losing if losing is productive in the big picture. Losing isn't fun but watching young guys do well is. We have one young guy playing at a high level: Kerrigan. With pretty much the whole roster being in it's prime, the results are as good as they will get under this leadership. Adding a quarterback in the draft wouldn't have changed the result of today's game unless we could have jumped on them early. No matter what the gameplan ultimately is, you have to be able to throw the ball early to get a lead.

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Forget three years ago, this team is one of the worst talented now.

I don't mind losing if losing is productive in the big picture. Losing isn't fun but watching young guys do well is. We have one young guy playing at a high level: Kerrigan. With pretty much the whole roster being in it's prime, the results are as good as they will get under this leadership. Adding a quarterback in the draft wouldn't have changed the result of today's game unless we could have jumped on them early. No matter what the gameplan ultimately is, you have to be able to throw the ball early to get a lead.

That's what I'm saying, MS had John Beck god bless him but John Beck to lead the team, lets be real he won't be the guy next season unless he goes Crazy and takes us to the playoffs. I wouldn't say we r that bad off talent wise..

Orakpo
Kerrigan
Fletch OLD BUT STILL
Hall- Solid player
Landry
Atogwe
F Davis
Hightower
T Williams
Coefield
j Brown

Are all starters for many teams in the NFL.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

That's what I'm saying, MS had John Beck god bless him but John Beck to lead the team, lets be real he won't be the guy next season unless he goes Crazy and takes us to the playoffs. I wouldn't say we r that bad off talent wise..

Orakpo
Kerrigan
Fletch OLD BUT STILL
Hall- Solid player
Landry
Atogwe
F Davis
Hightower
T Williams
Coefield
j Brown

Are all starters for many teams in the NFL.

I think you could go 11 deep in NFL names for any team in the NFL. To prove this point, I will try to do this for the Jaguars.

Jones-Drew
Mike Thomas
Monroe
M. Lewis
Pozluszny
Clint Session
Daryl Smith
Alualu
Knighton
Rashean Mathis
Dawan Landry
and Gabbert

My point is the Jags aren't good at all, but they have a core of talent just as strong as ours.

[ethat001]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Forget three years ago, this team is one of the worst talented now.

I don't mind losing if losing is productive in the big picture. Losing isn't fun but watching young guys do well is. We have one young guy playing at a high level: Kerrigan. With pretty much the whole roster being in it's prime, the results are as good as they will get under this leadership. Adding a quarterback in the draft wouldn't have changed the result of today's game unless we could have jumped on them early. No matter what the gameplan ultimately is, you have to be able to throw the ball early to get a lead.

I don't agree that it's one of the "worst talented", and I don't agree the "whole roster is in it's prime". The main difference now vs. three years ago is that Shanny's placed some youth in key positions for the future -- nucleus of our talent is now younger. Orakpo, TW, Kerrigan, etc -- all could get a lot better over the next few years.

Shanny's moves:
- Kerrigan - young, great so far
- TW - young, has shown flashes, still not consistent but overall good
- Bowen/Cofield - relatively young/in prime (27), have at least 4-5 years left, been good overall
- Carriker - young, in prime 27, good overall, gotten for rotating draft picks
- Atogwe - aging 30yo, ?hasn't shown much so far
- Promising youth: Helu, ?Jenkins

Others (non-shanny):
- Orakpo - young, great rusher, below average pass coverage
- F.Davis - young, good TE
- Landry - young, good at strong safety, liability when overpursues
- Aging old guard: S.Moss / Cooley - now average
- aging: J.Brown - 30yo

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by ethat001

I don't agree that it's one of the "worst talented", and I don't agree the "whole roster is in it's prime". The main difference now vs. three years ago is that Shanny's placed some youth in key positions for the future -- nucleus of our talent is now younger. Orakpo, TW, Kerrigan, etc -- all could get a lot better over the next few years.

Shanny's moves:
- Kerrigan - young, great so far
- TW - young, has shown flashes, still not consistent but overall good
- Bowen/Cofield - relatively young/in prime (27), have at least 4-5 years left, been good overall
- Carriker - young, in prime 27, good overall, gotten for rotating draft picks
- Atogwe - aging 30yo, ?hasn't shown much so far
- Promising youth: Helu, ?Jenkins

Others (non-shanny):
- Orakpo - young, great rusher, below average pass coverage
- F.Davis - young, good TE
- Landry - young, good at strong safety, liability when overpursues
- Aging old guard: S.Moss / Cooley - now average
- aging: J.Brown - 30yo

I am saying that young and in-prime are two different things. If you are in your prime (Orakpo, Landry, Hall, Wilson, Carriker, Cofield, Bowen, McIntosh, Hightower, Armstrong, Davis) then a high level of performance is to be expected. Whereas if you are young (Kerrigan, Gano, Barnes, Jenkins, Trent Williams, Hank, Austin, Helu, Paul) then potential matters over substance.

What I'm not saying is: "you are either old, or youre young. And we're old."

If you look at that core and who is contributing compared to the youth, it's just not clear why this core will be better in future seasons. It's a mature core. Kerrigan looks great and has his best days ahead of him, but for every Kerrigan there's a Barnes.

Now, if the core of the roster is good, that's what is reflected in your record. So while we may have good, young players in their prime, what we don't have is a winning team propelled by that core. And so in a field of 32 teams, it looks pedestrian.

The way to turn that around quickly is to make that second list look like a who's who list of tomorrow's pro-bowlers. Right now it's Kerrigan, a kicker, an injured rookie, an injured second year player, and a bunch of guys who need to crack the roster soon to provide optimism. Still plenty of upside there, but each week you get no return out of it sets the franchise back. And it justifies the questions I am asking.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe he should fire his personnel guy who isn't getting him the talent?

Hisself?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Hisself?

Actually, the idea of a head coach getting fed up with his personnel guy and firing him is pretty funny. The only thing more screwed up than a power structure like that is one where the coach actively prevents himself from building a talented roster.