Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.

Well lets look at it reasonably....

If MS takes a QB this year and bombs would DS fire him? I personally doubt it because MS still has 2 yrs left on his contract, but I've been wrong before.

But lets say for arguements sake the team does draft a QB and the team still does bad (most likely due to a lack of quality OL or backups, and decent WR's), and MS is fired..... more then likely the team would have to be just as bad or worse and not showing improvement so the team goes 4-12 last yr, this year 3-13, either another 3-13 or worse which I'd guess would give the Skins another top 5 pick for whoever DS desides to bring in as HC and giving said HC an opportunity to draft his QB for his system.

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.

Interesting perspective and probably...highly accurate.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Yes, I believe that starting in 2011, more emphasis is being placed on the draft. In 2010, we had fewer choices, which limited how much could be accomplished after trading the 2nd round pick for McNabb. As for the Haynesworth mess, Snyder and Cerrato tried to get cute with the cap by pushing Al's huge $20M bonus to the uncapped 2010 year. I sense that Shanny tried to make it work by communicating with Haynesworth before that bonus was paid. In hindsight, Shanny probably should have cut Al sooner when it was apparent that he wasn't getting with the program. Regarding the DBs, Snyder and Cerrato tied Shanny's hands by giving Hall a big contract after less than half a season here. Rogers is clearly the better cover corner, and is finally holding onto the ball in SF, the change of scenery has been good for him. Landry should be re-signed, but not for Ed Reed money. We have decent tools defensively, but the offense is bereft, starting with the O-line and QB. It's time to stop neglecting those positions, and I believe they will be addressed early in the draft.

I'm not going to disagree with you, rather, I'm going to write the opposite narrative.

The 2011 draft was a diversion from the norm because the Redskins had a strategy going into draft day, and it got blown up when Jake Locker got taken 8th overall by the Titans and then Robert Quinn got taken two picks ahead of where the Redskins traded down to, leaving Kerrigan as the best of the rest. The only pick they made who they had targeted was Jenkins. Hankerson fell, so they took a flyer on him even though they were lukewarm on him. The trade up for Helu made more sense because of the weakness at RB rather than because of their grade on a player.

The Redskins are always looking to put the best possible team on the field every week. That's why they re-signed Moss, upgraded the DL even though there weren't ideal options available, tried to fix that secondary with a vet like Atogwe. They've failed at winning because they struggle to evaluate talent.

The 2010 offseason was a good example of what the Redskins' top execs wanted to accomplish here. They didn't stick to it too long when it obviously wasn't working, but McNabb was supposed to be a savior, the defense was supposed to be better than this, particularly in the secondary, and they've never been hesitant to scapegoat players unceremoniously when their best laid plans don't work. In 2011, the Redskins tried something else because they had beaten themselves the prior year, not because they really believed in those methods.

****

I don't believe everything I just wrote, but I thought it would be good to see the perspective that there is no trend towards rebuilding.

[skinsfaninok]

No to Quinn and Clausen

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think I considered that at the time of the hire, and, well, I didn't think that was realistic then and I don't think it's realistic now.

But I think even if that was the original plan, I don't see how that's different from any other type of 5 year contract for the head coach. Sure, the original expectation is that you have a long term solution, but if you don't, then you go in another direction when the current one isn't feasible anymore.

I think if it was going to happen here for Mike or Kyle, we'd have some sort of positive identity 25 games in. Because the only identity that Mike has left is baffling press conferences, I think the premise that the clock is ticking is inevitable.

It wouldn't be the worst thing to give a third year to this group, but I don't know why you would if the feeling is that we're just delaying the ultimate failure of this group. There has to be feelings of optimism to justify continuing on this path. Right now? The optimism is coming from the fact that the QB class is so strong in next years draft. That doesn't change if Mike Shanahan resigns. Nothing gets worse.

I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick. He doesn't want to give too much information about players, is aloof about who's starting, calls players out in an attempt to not call players out, is very vague about injuries in order to keep other teams guessing. But I don't think MS is as good as Belichick.

The only other option is to think MS is really not a good speaker, and has lost his mind and possibly doesn't know what he's doing. Unless he's got alzheimers which would answer why his statement are different form his sons at times and why he says some of the things he does then I have to go with the fact he's trying to with hold, hide, or keep from being made public information that we fans and the opponant really don't need to know.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

And if the new hire doesn't like one of the QBs and thinks of the other as a good backup?

Then...it's 2013 and the Redskins are starting from scratch on a six year playoff drought. And probably a year or two to get back to the playoffs, and that assumes the new hire is a rarely competent one.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not it.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.

Edit: I'll add this, I love my son with all my heart, I've coached him since he was young. I'd love nothing better than for him to be an OC while I was HC and leave a HC position and legacy for him to step into/continue....however parental feelings can cloud judgement. I wouldn't put him & I in the situation that MS & KS are in here, because when things weren't going right and changes needed to be made it would be ugly for us both.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I sorta understand what you are trying to say, but the flaw in it is the fact that shanahan isn't a lame duck coach. Fact is these two drafts appear to have as many players of promise as all of VCs combined.

You have to give Shanahan the opportunity to bring a young QB in for the purpose of this effort. Short of picking a major bust, our draft position and the quality of qbs coming out ought to be enough to give the next coach (ugh) a start if the worst case happens and the shanahans are gone after year 3.

I doubt they will be though.

The 2011 draft looks particularly good right now, and did at the time, but VC had a couple of good drafts that he either led or was heavily involved in: 2004, 2005, and I thought 2009 was pretty good at the time, though if Barnes continues to fail, only Orakpo is left from that class.

I can't agree that we have to make a questionable long term decision out of a sense of loyalty to a poor contract signed in 2010. If Shanahan is going to coach this team in 2012, he needs to be the best guy for the rebuilding process. I can't see how this is the conclusion after the last offseason and what it has turned into. Again, that last part is just my opinion, but I don't feel like I'm stretching to get there.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick. He doesn't want to give too much information about players, is aloof about who's starting, calls players out in an attempt to not call players out, is very vague about injuries in order to keep other teams guessing. But I don't think MS is as good as Belichick.

The only other option is to think MS is really not a good speaker, and has lost his mind and possibly doesn't know what he's doing. Unless he's got alzheimers which would answer why his statement are different form his sons at times and why he says some of the things he does then I have to go with the fact he's trying to with hold, hide, or keep from being made public information that we fans and the opponant really don't need to know.

Every coach says coachspeak. Mike Shanahan sometimes cannot help himself "revealing" something, like that whole cardiovascular endurance quote.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

And if the new hire doesn't like one of the QBs and thinks of the other as a good backup?

Then...it's 2013 and the Redskins are starting from scratch on a six year playoff drought. And probably a year or two to get back to the playoffs, and that assumes the new hire is a rarely competent one.

I'm not sure how old you are or how long you've been a fan, I'm not questioning your fandom, all I'm saying is "WE" all have been through the Norv years of getting close and yet.... just not making it, Robiski, Schottenheimer (whom should have been given longer then 1 yr), Spurrier's short service, Gibbs2, Zorn, and now Shanahan. Basically the last 12 yrs being the worst as far as ups and downs, high expectations crushed...... Cerrato,.... so after all this BS WE all have been through is it really hard to just give the same HC longer then 2 yrs?

don't bring up Gibbs2 cause I totally believe Cerrato soured, sabotaged ...whatever the hole coaching staff and made it difficult to accomplish anything. Zorn is a prime example.

[GTripp0012]

I've gathered from this crowdsourcing exercise that the prevailing opinion on Shanahan is that two years of failure isn't enough evidence to overturn the decision to bring him on as head coach + personnel guy.

I haven't heard anyone defend the Redskins as being on the right track.

So basically this is the coaching equivalent of the minutes during a challenge in the NFL where everyone is pretty certain the call on the field wasn't right, but we have to determine whether or not the visual evidence is indisputable. I propose that indisputable evidence is not necessary to make the best possible decision for the game going forward. I also realize I am the minority opinion on that one.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I'm not sure how old you are or how long you've been a fan, I'm not questioning your fandom, all I'm saying is "WE" all have been through the Norv years of getting close and yet.... just not making it, Robiski, Schottenheimer (whom should have been given longer then 1 yr), Spurrier's short service, Gibbs2, Zorn, and now Shanahan. Basically the last 12 yrs being the worst as far as ups and downs, high expectations crushed...... Cerrato,.... so after all this BS WE all have been through is it really hard to just give the same HC longer then 2 yrs?

don't bring up Gibbs2 cause I totally believe Cerrato soured, sabotaged ...whatever the hole coaching staff and made it difficult to accomplish anything. Zorn is a prime example.

I wouldn't say I've "been through Norv" because I was more apathetic to the Redskins than die-hard in that era.

I'm going to ignore your pleas and bring up Gibbs 2.0 anyway.