The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Well, we went 5-11 last year running this offense, that's the biggest indication that it takes a while to learn this offense.

I think you're absolutely crazy for insisting it's not hard to learn Saunders' offense. Memorizing plays is the easy part. The hard part is going through those progressions on the field with linemen running at you, without having to think. When you're playing well, you're not thinking, you're reacting. THAT's what takes a year to get down pat.

It's as if you learned nothing from the past season. You can't just change an offense and expect the team to pick it up seamlessly.

C'mon Schneed. You of all people know that we went 5-11 because the defense regressed from 9 to 31. The offensive production stayed about on par with 2005.

Memorizing play is the easy part. The hard part is going though the progessions on the field. Well said. Such is the job of the NFL QB. Has Tim Rattay not been learning how to go through progressions on the field or something? Dude's not a rookie. He's a seven year vet. His production in limited time makes me think he knows a lot about making reads on the fly and reading his progressions. Al Saunders isn't the only guy who has a passing game based on reads and progressions.

I'm not suggesting we change the offense. I'm suggesting we sign Rattay and cut Collins.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Schneed,

The main reason why I think it's a virtual lock that Collins will be gone is that he's turning 36 this season and will be 37 next season. There are very few, if any, 37 yo QBs left in the league. He could buck the trend, but I doubt it.

So you're looking at a number on the roster sheet, his date of birth. And you're not considering the fact that:

1) Gibbs loves veterans.
2) Saunders loves Collins.
3) They're keeping Collins on board when they could have cut him to save $1.2 million in space.
4) The coaches might have learned something this past season; that changing too much on a team (whether personnel or scheme) disrupts continuity.
5) Collins has barely played in the last 10 years and has taken zero hits. It's not like he's a beat up 37 like Brunell is.

Seems like a pretty flimsy argument: "he'll be 37, there aren't many 37 yo QBs in the league."

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Seems like a pretty flimsy argument: "he'll be 37, there aren't many 37 yo QBs in the league."

I think it's pretty safe to assume that both Brunell and Collins will retire very soon, and probably by next season's end. You think it's a dumb assumption and I don't. I guess we'll just have to disagree.

But I still think that someone who values continuity would want to get some youth at QB, considering that both backup QBs are highly likely to retire soon (whether that means after this season or the following one).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by crawfish

I watched the 1st 9 games and it hurt my eyes. It hurt my eyes watching Brunell be a shadow of his former self and throw for 120 yards. His stats are mostly garbage stats at the end of games and at the end of halfs. So that stat stuff your feeding me isn't the real story.

I'm not by any means dogging on Brunell. I liked him in Jack. But he just can't get it done anymore. He gets hurt too much now and it hurts his play. Father time gets us all. So this is why I think Collins should be given more of a chance. We already know what Mr. Brunell can do. Now let's see what Collins can do. That's all I'm ssaying.

You have a good point there. Age saps his ability to heal from injuries and everyday beatings quickly. Brunell is best suited for a backup role at this point in his career.

Still if you graded him just by what he's capable of when healthy, he's one of the top 32 QBs in the league, which means someone is starting someone worse than Brunell. Of course, that's not our problem.

Don't pass off Brunells stats as garbage time without addressing the real story. It's honestly as if people think that the only team that ever plays in garbage time is us. All QBs play in garbage time. There's a certain expectation for a guy who's playing in garbage time, and if a guy exceeds it, thats a credit to him, not a knock on him.

Watch some of the highlight tapes. You may enjoy it since they don't make us relive the end of games like Minnesota and Tennessee.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So you're looking at a number on the roster sheet, his date of birth. And you're not considering the fact that:

1) Gibbs loves veterans.
2) Saunders loves Collins.
3) They're keeping Collins on board when they could have cut him to save $1.2 million in space.
4) The coaches might have learned something this past season; that changing too much on a team (whether personnel or scheme) disrupts continuity.
5) Collins has barely played in the last 10 years and has taken zero hits. It's not like he's a beat up 37 like Brunell is.

Seems like a pretty flimsy argument: "he'll be 37, there aren't many 37 yo QBs in the league."

I agree that its not a foregone conclusion that he will not be back in 2008, but unless something really unexpected happens in 2007, I can say that it would not be a smart move to bring him back. There are better QBs to be had (like Rattay for example).

At 37, Collins body will still heal slowly from this hits he will take, that won't be any different than the way Brunell would heal slowly. Brunell healthy is an asset. We don't know exactly what Collins healthy is exactly, but its more than reasonable to assume that it isn't much.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

C'mon Schneed. You of all people know that we went 5-11 because the defense regressed from 9 to 31. The offensive production stayed about on par with 2005.

Yeah the defense is largely to blame for sure. But the offense absolutely did not stay on par. You need to stop looking at so many stats like yards per attempt and all this sabermetric crap. One number matters: POINTS.

2005 - 359 points scored, 13th in the NFL
2006 - 307 points scored, 20th in the NFL

A 15% drop in points.

Cause? Hardly any big plays.

Our yards per carry, and yards per attempt, and QB ratings, and all that crap didn't change much. Gee, effing great. What wins games in the NFL: BIG PLAYS. We didn't generate them.

I know it's been a while since we've watched football, but keep the images from the season fresh in your mind. They tell the tale a lot better than the stat sheet does.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I agree that its not a foregone conclusion that he will not be back in 2008, but unless something really unexpected happens in 2007, I can say that it would not be a smart move to bring him back. There are better QBs to be had (like Rattay for example).

At 37, Collins body will still heal slowly from this hits he will take, that won't be any different than the way Brunell would heal slowly. Brunell healthy is an asset. We don't know exactly what Collins healthy is exactly, but its more than reasonable to assume that it isn't much.

The bolded part makes NO SENSE at all. Is your name Al Saunders? Who cares what WE know as fans? I think you're a smart guy GTripp, but honestly, I think I'll put a little more faith in the opinion of Al Saunders.

We don't know squat about Collins because we haven't seen him play. But Saunders sees him every day in practice and in meetings.

[crawfish]

QB's get hurt all the time in the NFL. Look at what happened to McNabb? He got hurt running out of bounds. Garcia came in and the offense didn't miss a beat. Yes they ran more but Garcia played very well. The question is can any of our back-up QB's do that? I would open the back-up qb as a competion instead of just handing it Brunell. Let both Brunell and Collins compete for the back-up job.

[Schneed10]

Lost in all this ridiculous (in my opinion) discussion is the fact that Rattay is not going to come at the vet minimum salary.

And we can't really afford anything higher than vet minimum this season.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The bolded part makes NO SENSE at all. Is your name Al Saunders? Who cares what WE know as fans? I think you're a smart guy GTripp, but honestly, I think I'll put a little more faith in the opinion of Al Saunders.

We don't know squat about Collins because we haven't seen him play. But Saunders sees him every day in practice and in meetings.

Saunders also thought that he had never seen a receiver with the kind of talent Brandon Lloyd had. Boy that worked out wonderful for us.

There's plenty of reasons he might like Todd Collins. Maybe he's just comfortable with him. We don't know why Saunders wants Collins around.

We do know that a coach liking a player as a backup is a very poor reason to expect anything from the player on the field.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by crawfish

QB's get hurt all the time in the NFL. Look at what happened to McNabb? He got hurt running out of bounds. Garcia came in and the offense didn't miss a beat. Yes they ran more but Garcia played very well. The question is can any of our back-up QB's do that? I would open the back-up qb as a competion instead of just handing it Brunell. Let both Brunell and Collins compete for the back-up job.

Garcia and Brunell really aren't all that different at all. Garcia probably benefited a bit from not playing the first half of the year, but what he did wasn't incredibly impressive. He was just a good QB playing out the twighlight of his career for a good team, and was able to get some wins along the way over some bad opponents. Garcia played well in the exact same way that Brunell played well. High completion, low INT, let the running game carry the offense.

A competition between Collins and Brunell wouldn't be worth having. Rattay and Brunell would be a very interesting duel.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Saunders also thought that he had never seen a receiver with the kind of talent Brandon Lloyd had. Boy that worked out wonderful for us.

There's plenty of reasons he might like Todd Collins. Maybe he's just comfortable with him. We don't know why Saunders wants Collins around.

We do know that a coach liking a player as a backup is a very poor reason to expect anything from the player on the field.

So essentially, because Saunders was wrong on Brandon Lloyd (a player he had never coached before), you see that as reason to discredit his judgment on Todd Collins (a player he has coached for years and years)??

Huh??

Saunders has more intelligence and knowledge on Todd Collins than anyone else in the NFL. Admittedly, the Skins were retarded on the Brandon Lloyd move, Saunders included. But if you're saying we can't trust Al Saunders regarding a player he's been around for years and years, then aren't you really saying Saunders' judgment on these matters is totally worthless?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah the defense is largely to blame for sure. But the offense absolutely did not stay on par. You need to stop looking at so many stats like yards per attempt and all this sabermetric crap. One number matters: POINTS.

2005 - 359 points scored, 13th in the NFL
2006 - 307 points scored, 20th in the NFL

A 15% drop in points.

Cause? Hardly any big plays.

Our yards per carry, and yards per attempt, and QB ratings, and all that crap didn't change much. Gee, effing great. What wins games in the NFL: BIG PLAYS. We didn't generate them.

I know it's been a while since we've watched football, but keep the images from the season fresh in your mind. They tell the tale a lot better than the stat sheet does.

How do you suggest we improve the frequency we get big plays at?

Look, the reason I look at sabremetric stats is because points don't tell the whole story. The raw points don't tell you how many turnovers we didn't get this year, how many points the defense didn't score this year, how pathetic our 32nd ranked starting ave. field postion was, or how much the discrepancy of points were just a function of luck. 15% doesn't look all that convincing when you see the reasoning.

Big plays will certainly help, but I don't know how you plan to get them. If you throw deep too often hoping to create big plays, you will raise INTs and kill a lot of drives.

The best way to get big plays is to get the ball in the hands of Moss, Portis and Cooley and let them do their thing. This is a sign Tim Rattay/Cut Todd Collins thread. I don't understand how creating more big plays should be a factor in this decision.

[724Skinsfan]

Sometimes I hate it when Schneed writes post on threads like these. He has essentially the same opinion that I do regarding Collins versus Rattay but because he's smarter, he says it better which leaves me with nothing better to do than write this weak post.

To echo. Saunders would not have kept Collins on as part of his offense if he felt he had no ability to perform his duties as a backup. Did anyone in KC challenge Saunders/Vermeil about why are they keeping such a horrible waste of NFL talent on the team?

Brunell, Collins and Campbell looked equally bad in pre-season. Probably because they had a better understanding of the plays but the other 10 guys were intermittently out of postion.

I think I read a while back that Collins keeps himself in great physical shape. At age 37 his body isn't going to break down after a series of hits.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So essentially, because Saunders was wrong on Brandon Lloyd (a player he had never coached before), you see that as reason to discredit his judgment on Todd Collins (a player he has coached for years and years)??

Huh??

Saunders has more intelligence and knowledge on Todd Collins than anyone else in the NFL. Admittedly, the Skins were retarded on the Brandon Lloyd move, Saunders included. But if you're saying we can't trust Al Saunders regarding a player he's been around for years and years, then aren't you really saying Saunders' judgment on these matters is totally worthless?

I'm saying that because Saunders likes him is not a good reason to have expectations for him. Every coach has his favorites. That doesn't make them good players necessarily, just overvalued by the team that coach is on.

Collins could be good, but the chances that he's a hidden talent at this point in his career are...well, not very high.

The most logical explination is that he (Saunders) just likes Collins and wants to see him succeed as opposed to another player, such as Rattay. He's not stupid or anything, or willing to sacrifice the betterment of the team for Todd Collins' game, but if Al Saunders won't get him PT, who will?