The Official Defense Has Major Issues/Fire Jim Haslett Thread

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

That was a direct apples to apples comparison: 2009 Detroit and 2010 St. Louis.

Do you want to break out the numbers from last year's first Giants game? No, I really don't think you do, especially if you're of the position that our defense is worse now.

The point is, factually speaking, our defense was horrible through three weeks last year. They ended up in the middle of the pack after all was said and done. They were a strong unit in most of October. This is simply being overlooked right now as people come with the pitchforks and torches to the new DC is that, apples to apples, the old defense struggled just as much in our 1-2 start last year.

Worst case scenario right now is that: nothing is different and we'll only go as far as the offense can take us. Because that's just the kind of team we've been the last three seasons.

You're simply taking stats from the years worst game to support you argument. The defense played well in the first Giants game. Anyone with football knowledge knows that the defense, although flawed, was decent. Not a great create havoc type of defense but good enough to make the playoffs if the offense could score more points. So why come in and totally change the scheme when the players you have don't fit? To me that's shitty coaching. You didn't see Mike Tomlin come in and run the Tampa two when he got the Pittsburgh job.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

You're simply taking stats from the years worst game to support you argument. The defense played well in the first Giants game. Anyone with football knowledge knows that the defense, although flawed, was decent. Not a great create havoc type of defense but good enough to make the playoffs if the offense could score more points. So why come in and totally change the scheme when the players you have don't fit? To me that's shitty coaching. You didn't see Mike Tomlin come in and run the Tampa two when he got the Pittsburgh job.

You're completely missing the point, and you're doing it without evidence, which is worse.

The point is that I/we simply don't know how good the defense is going to be this year. It might be top ten. It might be bottom ten. It's probably going to be somewhere in between. We need to see more before passing judgment on the virtues of the 3-4. All people are doing in this thread is passing judgment prematurely.

Last year's defense was worse through three games, and all we did last year was write them a pass because of the offense -- which was more productive in both losses last year than it was in both losses this year.

It's not hard to see that closed mindedness re: the 3-4 is causing people to point out that this year's defense had sucked when the EXACT same people were defending just a poor coaching/playing effort last year because we had a 4-3.

I'm not saying that Haslett is necessarily going to make the adjustments that make this defense passable, I'm just saying that if your issue here was that the defense is talent-loaded and underachieving...where the hell was everyone the last two years what that was PRECISELY the case in our 4-3.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

You're completely missing the point, and you're doing it without evidence, which is worse.

The point is that I/we simply don't know how good the defense is going to be this year. It might be top ten. It might be bottom ten. It's probably going to be somewhere in between. We need to see more before passing judgment on the virtues of the 3-4. All people are doing in this thread is passing judgment prematurely.

Last year's defense was worse through three games, and all we did last year was write them a pass because of the offense -- which was more productive in both losses last year than it was in both losses this year.

It's not hard to see that closed mindedness re: the 3-4 is causing people to point out that this year's defense had sucked when the EXACT same people were defending just a poor coaching/playing effort last year because we had a 4-3.

I'm not saying that Haslett is necessarily going to make the adjustments that make this defense passable, I'm just saying that if your issue here was that the defense is talent-loaded and underachieving...where the hell was everyone the last two years what that was PRECISELY the case in our 4-3.

I'm not sure how you're quantifying "worse" but I'd be interested in knowing. Of course we don't know how good the defense is going to be this year and I don't think people here are really trying to make that point. Adjustments and scheme changes are fine and expected, but no was expecting the defense to fall off the cliff to 32nd in the league, GTripp.

We don't need sixteen games to see that this ain't working and Haslett appears to be in over his head big time. It's not just a personnel issue, it's a coaching issue from what I can see. Can I prove that it's a coaching issue with stats? Hell no. Seventeen of the thirty two teams run a 3-4 scheme, yet we're making it look like algebra.

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm not sure how you're quantifying "worse" but I'd be interested in knowing. Of course we don't know how good the defense is going to be this year and I don't think people here are really trying to make that point. Adjustments and scheme changes are fine and expected, but no was expecting the defense to fall off the cliff to 32nd in the league, GTripp.

We don't need sixteen games to see that this ain't working and Haslett appears to be in over his head big time. It's not just a personnel issue, it's a coaching issue from what I can see. Can I prove that it's a coaching issue with stats? Hell no. Seventeen of the thirty two teams run a 3-4 scheme, yet we're making it look like algebra.

thats my biggest gripe right there. yes carter and orakpo might not be lb's but they are both damn talented as well as the rest of our d. we don't have the right guys for each position but with the talent level we have we shoudln't look this bad.

can anybody tell me anything haslett has ever really accomplished as a hc or dc other than lead the rams to a victory over the skins twice. i really don't know much about him, but after reading a couple things his success rate doesn't seem to be very good

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm not sure how you're quantifying "worse" but I'd be interested in knowing. Of course we don't know how good the defense is going to be this year and I don't think people here are really trying to make that point. Adjustments and scheme changes are fine and expected, but no was expecting the defense to fall off the cliff to 32nd in the league, GTripp.

We don't need sixteen games to see that this ain't working and Haslett appears to be in over his head big time. It's not just a personnel issue, it's a coaching issue from what I can see. Can I prove that it's a coaching issue with stats? Hell no. Seventeen of the thirty two teams run a 3-4 scheme, yet we're making it look like algebra.

I didn't clearly lay out my argument in any one post, but I made it pretty clearly over the rest of the thread. One thing I didn't do was quantify worse, although "yards per play" is probably the stat I was using the most.

It's just a nonsensical conclusion is all I'm dealing with. A lot of us actually were frustrated with Blache at this time last year, if I recall correctly. Not ONE of us suggested that the problem was that we didn't have the personnel to play the 4-3 even though the results were frustratingly similar to what we've seen in the last three weeks.

When the evidence is the same (the defense is underachiving/was overrated), but the conclusion is instantly regarding our scheme/personnel fit, it's hard to defend that perspective, IMO. I hit the film every week, and didn't realize last year until after the seventh or eighth game that last year's team simply couldn't cover anyone in zone. I'd really like to know what people are seeing while following the ball in real time that has made them determine that the defense is schematically "out of its element."

There isn't a lot of evidence to support conclusions at this point, because mostly, there isn't a lot of evidence. Comparisons between last year and this year are completely valid for me. It's all we have at this point.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

We don't need sixteen games to see that this ain't working and Haslett appears to be in over his head big time. It's not just a personnel issue, it's a coaching issue from what I can see. Can I prove that it's a coaching issue with stats? Hell no. Seventeen of the thirty two teams run a 3-4 scheme, yet we're making it look like algebra.

Do you remember when Spags 1st took over the Giants D?
They were horrid to start off the season but finished as one of the best defenses in the league.

NFL teams change every week as coaches and players make adjustements.
Should every team that struggles early in the season scarp everything?
Should the Texans scrap their defenses? Should the Viking scrap their offense?
Should the Pats scrap their defense?

Its too early.

Also, looking at the defense as the whole if you had to pick one major area of fault that's causing them to struggle what would you pick?
-Me i would pick the secondary. And guess what? They're the unit least effected by the change to a 3-4.
But, you're right in that the coaches need to look at what they're doing especially Bob Slowick.

[Lotus]

Cut McNabb, bring back the great Rich Bartel, the only QB to lead us to a 4th quarter comeback win this year!

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

You're completely missing the point, and you're doing it without evidence, which is worse.

The point is that I/we simply don't know how good the defense is going to be this year. It might be top ten. It might be bottom ten. It's probably going to be somewhere in between. We need to see more before passing judgment on the virtues of the 3-4. All people are doing in this thread is passing judgment prematurely.

Last year's defense was worse through three games, and all we did last year was write them a pass because of the offense -- which was more productive in both losses last year than it was in both losses this year.

It's not hard to see that closed mindedness re: the 3-4 is causing people to point out that this year's defense had sucked when the EXACT same people were defending just a poor coaching/playing effort last year because we had a 4-3.

I'm not saying that Haslett is necessarily going to make the adjustments that make this defense passable, I'm just saying that if your issue here was that the defense is talent-loaded and underachieving...where the hell was everyone the last two years what that was PRECISELY the case in our 4-3.

So you think Andre Carter is a 3-4 outside backer? Nope. Yet he's one of our best pass rushers. Where has he been? Is Haynesworth a nose tackle? Nope. Is Rocky an inside backer? No. Where is Chris Wilson? Do we even have a true nose tackle? No. Are Hall and Rogers zone corners? No. So yes it's very early but there are just too many indications that this is going to be a crappy defense cause guys seem to be out of position.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

So you think Andre Carter is a 3-4 outside backer? Nope. Yet he's one of our best pass rushers. Where has he been? Is Haynesworth a nose tackle? Nope. Is Rocky an inside backer? No. Where is Chris Wilson? Do we even have a true nose tackle? No. Are Hall and Rogers zone corners? No. So yes it's very early but there are just too many indications that this is going to be a crappy defense cause guys seem to be out of position.

I agreed with everything you said except this. Corners have to be able to play zone and man period. That is what a corner does. Either you can play corner or you can't. Hall and Rogers can play corner. The scheme needs to be adjusted because they are getting beat and it isn't their fault most of the time.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Angry

I agreed with everything you said except this. Corners have to be able to play zone and man period. That is what a corner does. Either you can play corner or you can't. Hall and Rogers can play corner. The scheme needs to be adjusted because they are getting beat and it isn't their fault most of the time.

They're both playing like shit. Who were those scrubs that were beating them yesterday?? What about letting Walter go off last week? I think they need to let them play more bump and run and let them be athletes.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Angry

I agreed with everything you said except this. Corners have to be able to play zone and man period. That is what a corner does. Either you can play corner or you can't. Hall and Rogers can play corner. The scheme needs to be adjusted because they are getting beat and it isn't their fault most of the time.

Just to build off this I think we need to be clear here that the 3-4 change really only involves the front seven. As far as the secondary goes it's still the same. You're either in man or zone or some combo.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Just to build off this I think we need to be clear here that the 3-4 change really only involves the front seven. As far as the secondary goes it's still the same. You're either in man or zone or some combo.

True, but how the secondary is designed to play when Haslett sends 5 or 6 at the qb seems to be an issue.

We've been through this before, in 06 we all questioned why Rogers was 10 yards off of every reciever & seemed to give up so many short to mid range routes. I would almost go as far to say that the defensive calls are the problem, because our blitzing isn't very effective.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Just to build off this I think we need to be clear here that the 3-4 change really only involves the front seven. As far as the secondary goes it's still the same. You're either in man or zone or some combo.

Very true. However, it is also the scheme that dictates DB depth in different situations. I don't understand why our corners are play 7-10 yards off the ball when the blitz is on. It just doesn't make sense and it is not the corners determining how much cushion they are giving.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

So you think Andre Carter is a 3-4 outside backer? Nope. Yet he's one of our best pass rushers. Where has he been? Is Haynesworth a nose tackle? Nope. Is Rocky an inside backer? No. Where is Chris Wilson? Do we even have a true nose tackle? No. Are Hall and Rogers zone corners? No. So yes it's very early but there are just too many indications that this is going to be a crappy defense cause guys seem to be out of position.

If Carter, Haynesworth and Rocky can't learn a new position, a few feet from their previous (which is an oversimplification I know), then they can GTFO. I don't want a bunch of dumbasses out there who play like retards if you dare ask them to stand up, or move inside a bit, or play 0-technique.

But I don't think they're a bunch of retards -- they probably can play those positions. Time will tell.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

If Carter, Haynesworth and Rocky can't learn a new position, a few feet from their previous (which is an oversimplification I know), then they can GTFO. I don't want a bunch of dumbasses out there who play like retards if you dare ask them to stand up, or move inside a bit, or play 0-technique.

But I don't think they're a bunch of retards -- they probably can play those positions. Time will tell.

Well Landry never truly learned to play FS, and is doing much better as a SS. And one of the reasons Carter came to Washington was because he wasn't successful as a 3-4 LB when SF changed to that scheme. I think versatility is great, but at the same time you need players that are good at their positions in certain schemes. And save for maybe Orakpo, the rest of our front seven are learning their positions.