Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

[freddyg12]

NO!
I can't believe that everyone thinks TO is a hall of famer. If the guy was that good why did 3 teams get rid of him in his prime?

I know, he's got the #s & on the field was great - at times. But to paraphrase Herm Edwards, if the point is to win the game, TO did almost as much to bring his teams down as he did to win games. Should that behavior be discounted just because he made a lot of plays? No, he ultimately was not a winner. Every time his team got close to winning big, he divided the team. His super bowl game exemplifies this; he had a great game, then throws his qb under the bus. The damage was too much to repair in the next season.

Job Performance = your behavior in any manner associated w/your employer & fellow employees.
TO's job performance was great at times, horrendos at others. Don't mistake my point for "off field" issues, different subject altogether. When you talk about your teamates & throw tantrums on the sideline, that is part of what your evaluated on as an employee. TO never carried himself like a hall of famer & will likely end his career like Allen Iverson, w/nobody wanting him.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

NO!
I can't believe that everyone thinks TO is a hall of famer. If the guy was that good why did 3 teams get rid of him in his prime?

I know, he's got the #s & on the field was great - at times. But to paraphrase Herm Edwards, if the point is to win the game, TO did almost as much to bring his teams down as he did to win games. Should that behavior be discounted just because he made a lot of plays? No, he ultimately was not a winner. Every time his team got close to winning big, he divided the team. His super bowl game exemplifies this; he had a great game, then throws his qb under the bus. The damage was too much to repair in the next season.

Job Performance = your behavior in any manner associated w/your employer & fellow employees.
TO's job performance was great at times, horrendos at others. Don't mistake my point for "off field" issues, different subject altogether. When you talk about your teamates & throw tantrums on the sideline, that is part of what your evaluated on as an employee. TO never carried himself like a hall of famer & will likely end his career like Allen Iverson, w/nobody wanting him.

the super bowl the eagles played in? TO was a major reason they made it. havent been back since he left. i think your statement is very inaccurate

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by dmek25

the super bowl the eagles played in? TO was a major reason they made it. havent been back since he left. i think your statement is very inaccurate

I think yours is debatable at best. Did TO help them get there - yes. But TO was hurt all through the playoffs & they won w/out him. So that has to be considered.

The 2nd point - "haven't been back since he left" actually reinforces my point. If TO could've kept his mouth shut & been a good teammate, that team might've been able to come back strong the next year. What happened after that was him tearing the team apart to the point that Philly got rid of him while he was still in his prime.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

I think yours is debatable at best. Did TO help them get there - yes. But TO was hurt all through the playoffs & they won w/out him. So that has to be considered.

The 2nd point - "haven't been back since he left" actually reinforces my point. If TO could've kept his mouth shut & been a good teammate, that team might've been able to come back strong the next year. What happened after that was him tearing the team apart to the point that Philly got rid of him while he was still in his prime.

While TO is guilty of everything he has done, that doesn't cancel out his numbers and his work ethic. Listening to the Football Today podcast, they mentioned for example that TO never gave up on the field like Randy Moss did towards the end of his time in Minny and the whole time he was with the Raiders.

I still think that the Eagles in 2004 went too much out of their way (including McNabb) to say that they would be fine without TO when he got hurt. I think things would have been much different if TO had played throughout the playoffs. They were just dominant with TO in the lineup. Sure, TO shouldn't have reacted the way he did, but he made a huge impact on that team.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

While TO is guilty of everything he has done, that doesn't cancel out his numbers and his work ethic. Listening to the Football Today podcast, they mentioned for example that TO never gave up on the field like Randy Moss did towards the end of his time in Minny and the whole time he was with the Raiders.

I still think that the Eagles in 2004 went too much out of their way (including McNabb) to say that they would be fine without TO when he got hurt. I think things would have been much different if TO had played throughout the playoffs. They were just dominant with TO in the lineup. Sure, TO shouldn't have reacted the way he did, but he made a huge impact on that team.

Actually it did, 3 teams thought so! I won't even count Buffalo, as he was old when he left there. I'll give TO credit for what he's done & I think he should be considered for the hall, but when you analyze his career, he did as much damage to his teams as he did good. Isn't the point of the game to help the team win? By that standard, TO did negate his on-field performance because his employers decided that letting him go was 'addition by subtraction.'

If you want to say the hall is ONLY about career stats, then by that standard, yes, he's got the #s. I would hate it if the hall simply became only about that.

[Lotus]

In the HoF? Because of his numbers, for sure.

First ballot? Because of his antics, which included ripping apart the 2005 Eagles, no.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

Actually it did, 3 teams thought so! I won't even count Buffalo, as he was old when he left there. I'll give TO credit for what he's done & I think he should be considered for the hall, but when you analyze his career, he did as much damage to his teams as he did good. Isn't the point of the game to help the team win? By that standard, TO did negate his on-field performance because his employers decided that letting him go was 'addition by subtraction.'

If you want to say the hall is ONLY about career stats, then by that standard, yes, he's got the #s. I would hate it if the hall simply became only about that.

Well some people that know a hell of a lot more football than you and I believe the HOF should focus on stats; and believe TO is a HOF'er. I'm just going by what they are saying.

Once again, I agree with some of the things that you are saying, but it is hard to ignore his numbers and how his performance on the field impacted the play of those teams. The HOF voters will make him sweat a year, but he will eventually get in.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Well some people that know a hell of a lot more football than you and I believe the HOF should focus on stats; and believe TO is a HOF'er. I'm just going by what they are saying.

Once again, I agree with some of the things that you are saying, but it is hard to ignore his numbers and how his performance on the field impacted the play of those teams. The HOF voters will make him sweat a year, but he will eventually get in.

Understood, but that's unfortunate IMO, even though I love stats. Stats just do a poor job of presenting all player contributions in a complex game like football. I actually don't disagree w/your prediction that he gets in, I just think it's a sad statement for the hall. Ultimately, I think TO was more about himself than he was about winning, and as I've stated, history backs that up. He even went to teams that were winning (philly, dallas) & still screwed things up.

If stats are to be the end all be all, all stats will have to be considered. So factor in TO's drops. To his credit he could block, don't think any stats can show that though.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

I think yours is debatable at best. Did TO help them get there - yes. But TO was hurt all through the playoffs & they won w/out him. So that has to be considered.

The 2nd point - "haven't been back since he left" actually reinforces my point. If TO could've kept his mouth shut & been a good teammate, that team might've been able to come back strong the next year. What happened after that was him tearing the team apart to the point that Philly got rid of him while he was still in his prime.

And that was a bad thing? LOL

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

NO!
I can't believe that everyone thinks TO is a hall of famer. If the guy was that good why did 3 teams get rid of him in his prime?

I know, he's got the #s & on the field was great - at times. But to paraphrase Herm Edwards, if the point is to win the game, TO did almost as much to bring his teams down as he did to win games. Should that behavior be discounted just because he made a lot of plays? No, he ultimately was not a winner. Every time his team got close to winning big, he divided the team. His super bowl game exemplifies this; he had a great game, then throws his qb under the bus. The damage was too much to repair in the next season.

Job Performance = your behavior in any manner associated w/your employer & fellow employees.
TO's job performance was great at times, horrendos at others. Don't mistake my point for "off field" issues, different subject altogether. When you talk about your teamates & throw tantrums on the sideline, that is part of what your evaluated on as an employee. TO never carried himself like a hall of famer & will likely end his career like Allen Iverson, w/nobody wanting him.

Cause the guy's a major pain in the ass. He pisses off everyone to the point where his talent doesn't even matter.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Cause the guy's a major pain in the ass. He pisses off everyone to the point where his talent doesn't even matter.

Finally, a voice of reason! Second sentence sums it up - thanks!