The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread

QB's get hurt all the time in the NFL. Look at what happened to McNabb? He got hurt running out of bounds. Garcia came in and the offense didn't miss a beat. Yes they ran more but Garcia played very well. The question is can any of our back-up QB's do that? I would open the back-up qb as a competion instead of just handing it Brunell. Let both Brunell and Collins compete for the back-up job.Garcia and Brunell really aren't all that different at all. Garcia probably benefited a bit from not playing the first half of the year, but what he did wasn't incredibly impressive. He was just a good QB playing out the twighlight of his career for a good team, and was able to get some wins along the way over some bad opponents. Garcia played well in the exact same way that Brunell played well. High completion, low INT, let the running game carry the offense.

A competition between Collins and Brunell wouldn't be worth having. Rattay and Brunell would be a very interesting duel.

Saunders also thought that he had never seen a receiver with the kind of talent Brandon Lloyd had. Boy that worked out wonderful for us.

There's plenty of reasons he might like Todd Collins. Maybe he's just comfortable with him. We don't know why Saunders wants Collins around.

We do know that a coach liking a player as a backup is a very poor reason to expect anything from the player on the field.

So essentially, because Saunders was wrong on Brandon Lloyd (a player he had never coached before), you see that as reason to discredit his judgment on Todd Collins (a player he has coached for years and years)??

Huh??

Saunders has more intelligence and knowledge on Todd Collins than anyone else in the NFL. Admittedly, the Skins were retarded on the Brandon Lloyd move, Saunders included. But if you're saying we can't trust Al Saunders regarding a player he's been around for years and years, then aren't you really saying Saunders' judgment on these matters is totally worthless?

Yeah the defense is largely to blame for sure. But the offense absolutely did not stay on par. You need to stop looking at so many stats like yards per attempt and all this sabermetric crap. One number matters: POINTS.

2005 - 359 points scored, 13th in the NFL
2006 - 307 points scored, 20th in the NFL

A 15% drop in points.

Cause? Hardly any big plays.

Our yards per carry, and yards per attempt, and QB ratings, and all that crap didn't change much. Gee, effing great. What wins games in the NFL: BIG PLAYS. We didn't generate them.

I know it's been a while since we've watched football, but keep the images from the season fresh in your mind. They tell the tale a lot better than the stat sheet does.How do you suggest we improve the frequency we get big plays at?

Look, the reason I look at sabremetric stats is because points don't tell the whole story. The raw points don't tell you how many turnovers we didn't get this year, how many points the defense didn't score this year, how pathetic our 32nd ranked starting ave. field postion was, or how much the discrepancy of points were just a function of luck. 15% doesn't look all that convincing when you see the reasoning.

Big plays will certainly help, but I don't know how you plan to get them. If you throw deep too often hoping to create big plays, you will raise INTs and kill a lot of drives.

The best way to get big plays is to get the ball in the hands of Moss, Portis and Cooley and let them do their thing. This is a sign Tim Rattay/Cut Todd Collins thread. I don't understand how creating more big plays should be a factor in this decision.

Sometimes I hate it when Schneed writes post on threads like these. He has essentially the same opinion that I do regarding Collins versus Rattay but because he's smarter, he says it better which leaves me with nothing better to do than write this weak post.

To echo. Saunders would not have kept Collins on as part of his offense if he felt he had no ability to perform his duties as a backup. Did anyone in KC challenge Saunders/Vermeil about why are they keeping such a horrible waste of NFL talent on the team?

Brunell, Collins and Campbell looked equally bad in pre-season. Probably because they had a better understanding of the plays but the other 10 guys were intermittently out of postion.

I think I read a while back that Collins keeps himself in great physical shape. At age 37 his body isn't going to break down after a series of hits.

So essentially, because Saunders was wrong on Brandon Lloyd (a player he had never coached before), you see that as reason to discredit his judgment on Todd Collins (a player he has coached for years and years)??

Huh??

Saunders has more intelligence and knowledge on Todd Collins than anyone else in the NFL. Admittedly, the Skins were retarded on the Brandon Lloyd move, Saunders included. But if you're saying we can't trust Al Saunders regarding a player he's been around for years and years, then aren't you really saying Saunders' judgment on these matters is totally worthless?I'm saying that because Saunders likes him is not a good reason to have expectations for him. Every coach has his favorites. That doesn't make them good players necessarily, just overvalued by the team that coach is on.

Collins could be good, but the chances that he's a hidden talent at this point in his career are...well, not very high.

The most logical explination is that he (Saunders) just likes Collins and wants to see him succeed as opposed to another player, such as Rattay. He's not stupid or anything, or willing to sacrifice the betterment of the team for Todd Collins' game, but if Al Saunders won't get him PT, who will?

Sometimes I hate it when Schneed writes post on threads like these. He has essentially the same opinion that I do regarding Collins versus Rattay but because he's smarter, he says it better which leaves me with nothing better to do than write this weak post.

To echo. Saunders would not have kept Collins on as part of his offense if he felt he had no ability to perform his duties as a backup. Did anyone in KC challenge Saunders/Vermeil about why are they keeping such a horrible waste of NFL talent on the team?

Brunell, Collins and Campbell looked equally bad in pre-season. Probably because they had a better understanding of the plays but the other 10 guys were intermittently out of postion.

I think I read a while back that Collins keeps himself in great physical shape. At age 37 his body isn't going to break down after a series of hits.Or, Saunders realizes exactly who Todd Collins is, but also thinks that his boy Collins has been loyal to him for years, and deserves to reap the benefits of a injury to the guy ahead of him.

From Saunders' point of view, if the season is down the crapper anyway, why not put Collins in charge of his offense and powerful running game so that he can generate some hype around him. Maybe Collins very well deserves his shot in a favorable situation.

But to clarify: What's best for Todd Collins probably isn't whats best for the Washington Redskins.

I'm saying that because Saunders likes him is not a good reason to have expectations for him. Every coach has his favorites. That doesn't make them good players necessarily, just overvalued by the team that coach is on.

Collins could be good, but the chances that he's a hidden talent at this point in his career are...well, not very high.

The most logical explination is that he (Saunders) just likes Collins and wants to see him succeed as opposed to another player, such as Rattay. He's not stupid or anything, or willing to sacrifice the betterment of the team for Todd Collins' game, but if Al Saunders won't get him PT, who will?

OK first off, is that your whole thing here? Trying to find hidden talent? I guess Gruden just missed the hidden talent that might be there, after all, he let him go, then signed Jeff Garcia, and traded for Jake Plummer.

San Fran was so enamored with that talent that they spent their #1 pick on Alex Smith.

The chances of Tim Rattay being a hidden talent are about the same as Todd Collins, IMO. Nill.

And I strongly disagree with the bolded part. Saunders doesn't just like Collins. Saunders' job is to run a good offense. He's comfortable that while Collins lacks talent, he can come in and manage a game well enough to not screw up. He's no long term answer, but he's a solid safety net when your #1 option goes down. Even coaches like to have insurance, that's what Collins is. Not the son Saunders wished he had.

You and I seem to be talking past each other an awful lot here. So let's just finally get down to the thing that will kill this ridiculous idea:

How do you propose to fit Rattay under our cap in 2007? Are you assuming we'll get him for vet min?

I love a good old qb debate. IMO we need to upgrade the back-up Qb position. Sorry GTripp. I know Brunell is your boy but we can't go back to him being our QB if JC gets hurt. He just limits our offense too much. Only Brad Johnson is better at dink and dunk passes. So I would welcome Rattay. His on the field performance shows he can play in the NFL. And how are we so sure Collins can not play? He wouldn't have lasted this long as a back-up if he totally sucked.

Or, Saunders realizes exactly who Todd Collins is, but also thinks that his boy Collins has been loyal to him for years, and deserves to reap the benefits of a injury to the guy ahead of him.

That sentiment may be plausible for the short term but he's not going to keep him on his roster for more than a couple of years out of straight up loyalty. People just do not maintain success by sacrificing talent acquisition and winning with something as basic as personal loyalty. Saunders has been in the NFL for a long time. Long enough to know when to draw the line when it comes to loyalty.

That sentiment may be plausible for the short term but he's not going to keep him on his roster for more than a couple of years out of straight up loyalty. People just do not maintain success by sacrificing talent acquisition and winning with something as basic as personal loyalty. Saunders has been in the NFL for a long time. Long enough to know when to draw the line when it comes to loyalty.

Agreed. GTripp, the way you talk about Saunders keeping Collins around just because he likes him makes it seem like you think Saunders is completely inept at his job. By insinuating that Saunders is playing favorites with Collins, you're basically saying Saunders lacks sound football judgment.

It's a severe overstatement of your case.