The legacy of 'W'?

Yes, it is a catch 22 -- you can't have both. I just wish America would understand that. IMO, it is one of those very rare absolutes. If you sacrifice any liberty for security, it is only a matter of time until you have no liberties -- and therefore no security.

I think those quotes offer good insight into the minds of the Founders, and the purpose they saw for the government. It is clear to me that the Founders did not deem personal security a responsibility of the government. Instead, the government's role was to ensure that the people's liberties were protected. I guess we have just gotten lazy and weak over the years, and now we expect the government to protect us.

I 100% agree. Very good post.

Some of us are still waiting for your 1 positive on GW.

I've probably gotten more laughter out of him than any other President.

Anytime he opens his mouth something laughable is bound to come out.

I've probably gotten more laughter out of him than any other President.

Anytime he opens his mouth something laughable is bound to come out.


While I admit, I chuckled at that comment from you, that is in no way a positive. Try again.

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Sixty minutes reported on what you never heard of, as well as virtually every talk show and newspaper in the country. Blacks from the House of Delegates went to the Senate with the material. All that was needed was for one Senator to back the protest for there to be a major investigation of the already proven disenfranchisement. Gore asked all the Senators in the Senate not to support the House protest. He was apparently in a patriotic mood and decided not to vote for the Congressional investigation. Gore voting "no" was shown on nation television, over and over. No disenfranchisements resulting from computer cliches were protested or alledged.
I realize you believe what you keep saying, but you are factually incorrect again and again. People cannot develope worthwhile opinions without correct data. The prevailing fault of the Bush supporters in this thread is that they are reasoning from incorrect data or attitudes that derive from ignorance of data. Virtually everything jsarno say is wrong, not because of his logic, which is fine, but rather the nonsensical myth and pseudo knowledge he reasons from.
Jeb Bush himself was suspected of being behind employing the Florida Computer firm that used the Texas felon list to knock identically named blacks from the the Florida voting list. There is no doubt that the fraud occurred, only doubt about the identities of the people who sat it up. The computer firm that perpetuated the fraud was paid by the state of Florida with taxpayer money.

Well if Gore wins his own damn state of Tennessee then he gets enough electoral votes and Florida isn't even an issue. Where's the outcry over that?

That has nothing to do with anything.

This will likely be the only response I make to you since you have no clue what it takes to debate, rather you prefer to assume and throw insults.
So my suggestion to you sir is to try to read OBJECTIVE articles, and actually see things for what they really are.
If you choose to listen to all the same left wing drivel then that is your choice, but don't assume things are not the way they are just because you read something at one point. Trust me, I read more than most people, and I am very well educated, you might actually know that if you were here for longer than 107 posts.
You don't have to like what I say, hell that's America...I know I am the minority in my thinking, but use links to disprove me, not say you need to read more. That just makes you look lazy and unwilling to debate. Especially since you don't seem to know your ass from your elbow.
So the ball is in your court. You can either get pissed at my comments, or you can take them to heart and try to make an actual debate.

Thanks for the challenge. Here are some things you should absorb before debating. I'm new to this type of communication. Please inform me if I have posted links so that they can be accessed.

Published Monday, November 29, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
How To Take Back A Stolen Election
by Thom Hartmann

"Never again!" says the slogan in an email I received from an activist friend. "Never again will we allow a stolen election in the USA!"
But how are we going to stop it?
The major American political parties have an answer - it's already working for them in the Ukraine - but it's very much a sword that can cut two ways.
Interestingly, it was first used in the US.
On December 4, 2000, in time to change the outcome of the Electoral College vote, Greg Palast published an article in Salon.com (http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=55&row=1), made into a BBC television documentary (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram) shortly thereafter, that laid out solid evidence of massive electoral fraud in Florida, perpetrated against the majority-Democratic-voting African American community by Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush. Without this fraud, Gore would have easily carried the state.
Even more glaring, a consortium of news organizations found and reported on the front page of The New York Times (and other papers) on 12 September 2001, that in Florida "...a statewide recount -- could have produced enough votes to tilt the election his [Gore's] way, no matter what standard was chosen to judge voter intent." (The Times apparently chose to bury this fact - that Gore actually won the 2000 election - in the 15th paragraph and behind a misleading headline because the nation had been attacked on 9/11 the day before.)
Not only was the election of 2000 stolen by the Bush brothers, but it was proven by the later statewide recount that - even after Jeb's knocking thousands of African Americans off the rolls - Gore still would have won Florida had all the votes been counted.
This was outrageous news, enough to bring people into the streets. And there were demonstrations - loud and angry ones. But they were round-the-clock in front of Al Gore's VP residence in Washington DC (shouting with bullhorns "Get out of Dick Cheney's house!"), outside (and often within) vote-counting headquarters' in Florida, and entirely composed of Republicans.
Where were the protesting Democrats? Other than those in a few of Florida's African American communities and the Congressional Black Caucus, they were largely invisible. If Democrats and progressives had taken to the streets in mass numbers nationwide that November and December, it's entirely probable that the Supreme Court would have backed off and allowed a statewide recount to continue, and Al Gore would have been president for the past four years, instead of George W. Bush.

Salon
Salon.com Politics | Florida's flawed "voter-cleansing" program (http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/print.html)

Civil Right Commission
Chapter 7: Casting a Ballot (http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch7.htm)
There are many chapters of the CRC that should be consulted, including this one. There are also different interpretations of the report on the Web, some blaming the system for errors, other crying fraud and laying blame on Harris and Jeb Bush for intent.

Midwest Today, December 2000

C O M M E N T A R Y

Scary Facts About the Florida Vote

By Larry Jordan



With their typical inability to focus on more than just a few issues at a time, the national media have been doing a very inadequate job of covering the election controversy in Florida. Lost amidst all the blather have been some significant facts which have either not been covered at all, or at least have not been sufficiently stressed. For example:

Confounding the predictions of most polls and pundits, and despite having been outspent by millions, Al Gore won the popular vote by more than 325,000 ballots nationwide, with over 50 million votes in his column -- the second-highest total ever and the largest vote tally by any non-incumbent President in U.S. history. He did all this despite the fact that Ralph Nader siphoned off critical votes in key states.

Gore also took the lead in electoral votes, and now stands at 266. Meanwhile, Bush's margin of win in Florida shrank by 85 percent, to a slim few hundred votes, after that state's mandatory first recount, and has been fluctuating ever since.

With so many voting irregularities apparent even on the day of polling, it only stood to reason that the Democrats would seek to ascertain a more accurate vote tally. They have been criticized for having requested recounts in largely Democratic counties, but they did so primarily because that's where most of the problems occurred.

Interestingly, an investigation by the Orlando Sentinel revealed that these counties had been relegated some problem-prone voting machines, which were known to have an error rate five times higher than the more accurate equipment which was used in Republican dominated counties.

This may have been the Republicans' secret weapon, and the reason why Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, brother of the GOP Presidential nominee, was so sure Dubya would carry the state. It allowed Bush to squeeze out the maximum number of votes in friendly precincts while Democrats waged an uphill battle to record all the votes due them.

As has been previously reported, an analysis suggests that Gore may also have lost about 13,000 votes in Palm Beach County because of voter confusion over an illegally designed "butterfly" ballot. +

After the election, Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan acknowledged that his anomalous blip of 3,704 votes in the staunchly Democratic county, with a large Jewish population, almost certainly resulted from confusion. Buchanan said he believed those votes were intended for Gore.

Buchanan's total in Palm Beach County exceeded his tally in any other county by about 2,700. So those could be factored in for Gore too.

Gore lost even more votes -- an estimated 10,622 ballots -- when voters tried to correct their error by punching a second hole for Gore after mistakenly punching one for Buchanan.

But that's not all. In Duval County (Jacksonville, Fla.) double-marked ballots substantially affected Mr. Gore's showing, an analysis of voting data suggests. More than 20% of the votes cast in predominantly African-American precincts were tossed out, nearly triple the number in majority white precincts. In two largely black precincts, nearly one-third of the ballots were invalidated. Altogether, 21,942 ballots were rejected because the voter, in confusion, punched the hole beside the name of more than one candidate.

Aside from the mechanical problems with the vote tabulations, evidence now suggests that on election day, many white Florida officials were doing their utmost to make sure blacks and other minorities (who historically favor the Democrats) didn't vote. That's the real scandal.

In a maneuver that smacks of the civil rights fights in the old South, substantial numbers of blacks were turned away from polling booths in various parts of the state.

These facts notwithstanding, Republicans who were bussed into Miami on Wednesday staged a near-riot, storming the county canvassing board. Democratic personnel were physically assaulted within yards of the vote counting while prominent Republicans launched vituperative attacks on the canvassing board members and its staff.

If African-American voters led by Jesse Jackson had done the same, Republican spinners would be on all the talk shows complaining about how thugs and brownshirts were trying to undermine democracy. The GOP intimidation tactics no doubt prompted the Miami-Dade canvassing board to its cowardly decision that it would not count thousands of ballots that would potentially help make Gore President.

Sanctimonious Republicans, goaded by Gov. George W. Bush and his supporters, keep chanting that Gore is trying to "steal" the election. This is truly egregrious, given the fact that voter intimidation, ballot mishandling and other suspicious activities took place in the decisive state of Florida, whose Governor, Jeb Bush, had a personal stake in the outcome. Mere coincidence? Consider:
Republicans sent out postcards over Jeb Bush's signature in a get-out-the-vote effort that ran afoul of the laws intended to prevent abuse of absentee voting. In Oskaloosa County in the Florida panhandle, which is heavily Republican, officials sent out more than 17,000 absentee ballots, including to people who did not request them - a clear violation of state law.

*Ballots ran out in certain precincts.

*Carpools of African-American voters were stopped by police. In some cases, officers demanded to see a "taxi license."

*Polls closed with people still in line in Tampa.

*In Osceola County, ballots did not line up properly, possibly causing Gore voters to have their ballots cast for Harry Browne. Also, Hispanic voters were required to produce two forms of id when only one is required.

*Dozens, and possibly hundreds, of voters in Broward County were unable to vote because the Supervisor of Elections did not have enough staff to verify changes of address.

*Voters were mistakenly removed from voter rolls because their names were similar to those of ex-cons.

*According to Reuters news service, many voters received pencils rather than pens when they voted, in violation of state law.

*The Miami Herald reported that many Haitian-American voters were turned away from precincts where they were voting for the first time.

*The mayoral candidate whose election in Miami was overturned due to voter fraud, Xavier Suarez, said he was involved in preparing absentee ballots for George w. Bush.

*CBS's Dan Rather reported a possible "computer error" in Volusia County, Florida, where James Harris, a Socialist Workers Party candidate, won 9,888 votes. (He got only 583 in the rest of the state).

*Many African-American first-time voters who registered at motor vehicles offices or in campus voter registration drives did not appear on the voting rolls, according to a hearing conducted by the NAACP and televised on C-SPAN

*The London Times has reported a suspected pro-Bush vote fraud operation in Miami involving thousands of ballots.

*Jewish precincts had a suspiciously high number of double-punched ballots, and another lost its computerized votes altogether when a poll worker "accidentally" erased them.

*The Florida Highway Patrol confirmed that the department did conduct what it called a "routine" check point near a black precinct in Tallahassee on election day. Police asked black men to get out of their vehicles and produce identification.

*African Americans received calls the weekend before the election from a speaker who falsely claimed to be with the NAACP, asking them to vote for Bush. Similar calls were reported in Michigan and Virginia.

*Sandy Goard, supervisor of elections of Seminole County, admitted allowing two Republican operatives to add missing voter-identification numbers to 4,700 incomplete absentee ballot requests, mostly GOP voters -- actions that were illegal.
The Bush minions have been harping about the military ballots which they claim the Gore team got thrown out. Ironically, the election officials who passed judgment on these ballots used criteria established weeks ago by Republican Secretary of State Katherine Harris.

The GOP apparently has no qualms about the disenfranchisement of thousands of other voters, who would be missed if hand recounts did not go forward. Nor do they care about many of the veterans whose votes have not yet been counted.

As Carl Bernstein of the Washington Post commented on MSNBC recently, no doubt somebody somewhere is, at this very moment, compiling a book which will be published after this controversy is over. Surely it will be a blockbuster. Only then will we find out more about the behind-the-scenes machinations going on in this election dispute.

It is sad, indeed, that our national media are not up to the task of keeping the public informed of the broader complexities of this matter as they unfold.
+In Palm Beach County, there were 19,120 ballots disqualified because of double-voting. The Palm Beach County canvassing board analyzed a sample of these disqualified ballots. From that sample of 144 ballots, 80 ballots -- or 56 percent -- showed punches for both Buchanan and Gore, according to the Nov. 21 New York Times.. If that sample percentage reflects the entire batch, Gore may have lost as many as 10,622 votes.

Because a right winger said it, or because there is evidence he is still alive?

Just curious...

Because a new Osama tape surfaced today. Try reading the news.

Gore lost even more votes -- an estimated 10,622 ballots -- when voters tried to correct their error by punching a second hole for Gore after mistakenly punching one for Buchanan. So either the Florida Bush voters knew how to correctly punch a ballot whereas the Gore voters did not, or this article is selectively using facts to draw readers to an incorrect conclusion.

Either way, this is pretty bad for your case.

Thanks for the challenge. Here are some things you should absorb before debating. I'm new to this type of communication. Please inform me if I have posted links so that they can be accessed.

You're welcome.

ps- that post about the election...that wasn't my debate, that was someone elses. I don't care to debate that, Bush won and is president, even if they decide today that he didn't REALLY win, there is still nothing that can be done. So I don't debate that, I really don't care.

Because a new Osama tape surfaced today. Try reading the news.

OK, in the spirit of posting links, I will take the first step here:
New Osama tape surfaces after year-Gulf-World-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gulf/New_Osama_tape_surfaces_after_year/articleshow/2205968.cms)

In case you missed it, #1- it was from "a year ago", #2- it was not dated at all.
Do you really think a millionaire or his friends can't come up with tapes or even old clips from Bin Laden???? There have been several "fake tapes" to this point (2001 and 2004 to name a couple), so to assume just cause your news station played a tape doesn't make it real. The tape you are referring to is very old and is not any sort of verifiable evidence that Bin Laden is alive.