The legacy of 'W'?

Well, I do understand where you're coming from, however, this has been something our great greandparents gave to us and we have yet to be truely hit with it. We always hear about the deficit, but no one knows how it affects us.

Here's what happens: We go bankrupt when the interest we pay out becomes more than our income. Since we are bankrupt, we can no longer borrow to pay for government services, so lose millions of jobs, including firemen, cops, and soldiers. Since there is such chaos and so many are out of work, there is too little money to pay for the products produced by our companies. The companies then topple, sending millions more out of work. Depression (I sure am glad we've never been hit by one of those before). Gangs of violent hoboes roaming the land. Our country gets its butt kicked by Canada, which walls our poor (everyone) and starving, even though we are willing to work.
jsarno. Have you ever read anything?

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

I've read a great deal on the election. You are quite right that the Gore camp wanted recounts in specified districts. Unfortunately, your knowledge ends there. As I've said, a recount of only those districts later found Bush the winner of Florida. However, it is totally true and indisputable that a later recount of the whole state showed that Gore had more votes cast for him in Florida than Bush did, which vindicated the exit polls.

Let me be clear.

The Florida (whole state) recount did not and should not have made Gore the winner. He did not ask for a whole state recount; therefore, it was without value as a determinant of the winner.

We do not have a quarrel in regard to logic here. Bush was the legal winner by rule. At the same time, Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush did and the exit polls were vindicated. The problem is that you have no knowledge of the statewide recount. I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

Other matters. Presidents whom I consider great lawbreakers and liars include FDR (civil liberties), Kennedy (imperialist, irresponsible), Johnson (pointless war and lying), Jefferson (imperialism, lying,), Nixon (corruption, mental illness). I have distaste for Jackson (cruelty), Wilson (racism), and Hoover (stupidity), as well as a dislike for others.

Generally speaking, I don't like presidents. I wouldn't go across the street to see one, even though I'm an avid politico. I don't even like Clinton. His pardoning his criminal friends ended whatever respect I had for him.

But this guy, Bush, is far worse than any of the above. He has all the bad traits of the others combined, all. He's as dumb as Hoover and cruel as Jackson, as racist as Wilson and as imperialistic as Jefferson, and so on. Plus, he developed a policy of torture, secret prisons, spied on Americans on a massive scale, has tried to destroy the balance of power, etc., etc.

Well, I do understand where you're coming from, however, this has been something our great greandparents gave to us and we have yet to be truely hit with it. We always hear about the deficit, but no one knows how it affects us.

Here's what happens: We go bankrupt when the interest we pay out becomes more than our income. Since we are bankrupt, we can no longer borrow to pay for government services, so lose millions of jobs, including firemen, cops, and soldiers. Since there is such chaos and so many are out of work, there is too little money to pay for the products produced by our companies. The companies then topple, sending millions more out of work. Depression (I sure am glad we've never been hit by one of those before). Gangs of violent hoboes roaming the land. Our country gets its butt kicked by Canada, which walls out our poor (everyone) and starving, even though we are willing to work.
jsarno. Have you ever read anything?

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

The butterfly ballot was designed by a Democratic election chairperson. Tough luck for Gore but there is no way of knowing who people meant to vote for, so no claims can be made as to how many votes Gore lost.

I find it improbable that there are 80,000 registered voters in Florida who had the same name as Texas felons and even more improbable that all those voters were black. Perhaps you could document.

I have never seen any recount that showed Gore to be the winner, though many have tried. Again, you might link to something. If what you say is true, then certainly some netroot blogger would be all over it.

I can't make heads ot tails of the section I highlighted. The reason Gore didn't ask for a statewide recount was because he wanted to do it in counties controlled by Democrats and where he was more likely to gain votes, Dade, Broward, etc. He eventually did call for a statewide recount after it became obvious that a selective recount strategy was making him look foolish.

Of course, if you could point to a reputable website that documents a rcount that shows Gore to be the winner then you might actually have a case. I've never seen one and you are the first person that I have heard claim to have knowledge of one. Let's see it.

The founding fathers believed that laws should protect all of us from unwarranted government intrusion. To believe otherwise is very "un-conservative."


Not to quibble, but the founders believed that only white, land owning males had rights. The sentiment behind what you say is nice, though. Let us try to make it so.

I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

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I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

Not to quibble, but the founders believed that only white, land owning males had rights. The sentiment behind what you say is nice, though. Let us try to make it so.
so we can pick apart certain parts of the constitution, and use only the parts that we agree with? i really wish people would read the ENTIRE second amendment, before they declare their right to bear arms

It sounds like you want someone who can play the role of President. We had him and all the Democrats said he was an idiot as well. It seems there is no pleasing you.

And "it factor"? Have you been reading the magazines at the Supermarket checkout or something?

He's just not a convincing leader in the least bit. It would be nice if he could at least speak intelligently. I wouldn't even be able to get behind him if he were a manager at McDonald's.

matty, you started out civil, but have got more and more intense with your posts. why? because some people see a spade, but yet call it a diamond?