Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess

However, as CRedskin pointed out, the agreement to limit the amount of restructering that could be done was not a decision that could be made by the owners at the time the decision was made. At the time the decision was made, any such agreement was forbidden by the CBA then in force. Whether it was 32 or 28 it is irrelevant, the agreement was in contravention of the CBA and was simply not enforceable. The sanction being now imposed is an attempt to punish teams that operated within the letter and spirit of the CBA. Any agreement to the contrary was prohibited and no amount of retroactive procedures can change that.



First and foremost, the fact that a party, whether it be the NFLPA or the Dallas Cowboys, takes no legal action is simply not indicative of whether or not other parties, i.e. the Redskins, have legal remedies.

As to the NFLPA, it certainly cannot now complain that the sanction is improper b/c, by accepting the salary cap presented by the NFL, they have aquiesed to the penalty and the restrictions it creates for their members. Further, and as noted above, for actions taken during the 2010 offseason, the NFLPA settled their collusion claims and effectively waived any right of protest they had. Essentially, the owners have been given a free pass and are free from threat of lawsuit by the players on any issues regarding collusion or the salary cap amounts.

In relying on the NFLPA's acquiesence to the sanction as a basis for asserting that the sanction against DS & JJ is permissible, however, you're taking procedural issues applicable to one party and improperly applying them on the same substantive level to the issues applicable to another party.

In regards to DS and JJ and the sanction issue, the NFLPA could have procedurallly nixed the sanction and this whole thing is a non-issue. Under the current CBA's procedures, the NFLPA could have said, nope, no way no how. They did not, so their members are screwed to the extent they would have benefitted from Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones having more money to spend BUT they got a higher salary cap number. Thus, under the governing procedures and as to the players, the NFLPA's action substantively ends the issue. However, the NFLPA's procedural acquiesence is not determinative of the substantive rights of DS and JJ as members of the joint venture known as the NFL. Specifically, the NFLPA's procedural acceptance of the sanction is not determinative of the substantive rights held by DS & JJ in relation to their fellow owners.

While it looks good at first blush, the NFLPA's procedural approval of the sanction is irrelevant as to whether members of the joint venture are attempting to sanction other members of the joint venture for actions that were simply not improper at the time they were taken. Again, DS and JJ were bound by the CBA then in force. Did they violate it in any way? No. The NFL and their fellow owners are now attempting to sanction DS and JJ for not cheating on the CBA. In determining whether or not such actions are permissible, the NFLPA is not part of the equation.



Yes. The NFL has very good attorneys and, I am sure, they will dress up their weak ass legal arguments (which I set out at #104) as well as can be expected. But, when you get right down to it, the owners are punishing DS & JJ for failing to cheat on the CBA. Ultimately, regardless of all the subsequent procedural CYA, that's the ultimate fact that cannot be avoided.

We actually agree on the NFLPA,now where we disagree is
your opinon that the actions of DS and JJ were not improper if as reported they did agree with the other 30 owners they did agree not to dump salaries then they action of the "comittee" overides the action of the 2(or 4)you say they were bound by the CBA.....yet the NFLPA says it was fine with them.Look you sayng the actions were proper at the time ,of course you do you are a Redskin fan but that simply is not the case.
This is where we disagree .. you say "While it looks good at first blush, the NFLPA's procedural approval of the sanction is irrelevant " I understand your opinion but I disagree that it is as you say irrelevant.You have 2 parties the owners and the players and both are together in their opinion of what happen except DS and JJ and it looks as if the Cowboys will accept the punishment.I enjoy your theories and at the end of the day that is all mine are becuase nether of us knows the true facts of the case and all we can do is speculate on what really transpired.You use very good words as "cheat" and "cheap ass case" but in the end we know the the NFL lawyers might make it look the other way around.

Anyone know when we might ds and jj to go nuclear? The owners meeting is the 26th to 28th, maybe after that if not resolved?

We actually agree on the NFLPA,now where we disagree is
your opinon that the actions of DS and JJ were not improper if as reported they did agree with the other 30 owners they did agree not to dump salaries then they action of the "comittee" overides the action of the 2(or 4)you say they were bound by the CBA.....yet the NFLPA says it was fine with them.Look you sayng the actions were proper at the time ,of course you do you are a Redskin fan but that simply is not the case.
This is where we disagree .. you say "While it looks good at first blush, the NFLPA's procedural approval of the sanction is irrelevant " I understand your opinion but I disagree that it is as you say irrelevant.You have 2 parties the owners and the players and both are together in their opinion of what happen except DS and JJ and it looks as if the Cowboys will accept the punishment.I enjoy your theories and at the end of the day that is all mine are becuase nether of us knows the true facts of the case and all we can do is speculate on what really transpired.You use very good words as "cheat" and "cheap ass case" but in the end we know the the NFL lawyers might make it look the other way around.

You don't get it at all do you?

If it goes to arbitration, I hope the Redskins ask for removal of the balance of the $18 million for next year and a compensatory pick at the end of the 2nd round this year to compensate for our inability to utilize the cap space we were entitled to.

We actually agree on the NFLPA,now where we disagree is
your opinon that the actions of DS and JJ were not improper if as reported they did agree with the other 30 owners they did agree not to dump salaries then they action of the "comittee" overides the action of the 2(or 4)you say they were bound by the CBA.....yet the NFLPA says it was fine with them.Look you sayng the actions were proper at the time ,of course you do you are a Redskin fan but that simply is not the case.

...and you feel the opposite because you are a Giants fan and want to see the Skins wing clipped. HERP DERP.


I still got nothing from you with the picture I posted and your claim that "only 4 teams" did it. What I showed says otherwise.

We actually agree on the NFLPA, now where we disagree is your opinon that the actions of DS and JJ were not improper if as reported they did agree with the other 30 owners they did agree not to dump salaries then they action of the "committee" overrides the action of the 2(or 4) you say they were bound by the CBA.....yet the NFLPA says it was fine with them. Look you saying the actions were proper at the time ,of course you do you are a Redskin fan but that simply is not the case.

Why is it not the case? Explain this to me. Tell me the legal principle upon which you rely. All I have seen from you is:

1) DS & JJ may have agreed with the other owners not to engage in contract dumping in the uncapped year. Alternatively, (and as demonstrated by the NFL's statement), the Skins did not agree but rather: "The Management Council Executive Committee determined that the contract practices of a small number of clubs during the 2010 league year created an unacceptable risk to future competitive balance, particularly in light of the relatively modest salary cap growth projected for the new agreement’s early years." NFL statement on salary cap sanctions (http://www.csnwashington.com/blog/redskins-talk/post/NFL-statement-on-salary-cap-sanctions?blockID=668324) (emphasis added).

Thus, the sanction is being imposed for actions that took place in 2010. As they related to club/player "contract practices", the actions of the club owners in 2010 were governed by the CBA negotiated between the players and owners in 2006 CBA extension. Here is the relevant section of that agreement as it relates to collusion:

“ARTICLE XXVIII: ANTI-COLLUSION - Section 1. Prohibited Conduct: No Club, its employees or agents, shall enter into any agreement, express or implied, with the NFL or any other Club, its employees or agents, to restrict or limit individual Club decision making as follows: …(a) whether to negotiate or not to negotiate with any player; … (e) concerning the terms or conditions of employment offered to any player for inclusion, or included, in a Player Contract.” http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf

In light of that clause, tell me how any agreement by the owners that “the contract practices of a small number of clubs during the 2010 league year created an unacceptable risk to future competitive balance” does not violate this section.

By their own words, the NFL, through their Management Council is sanctioning DS & JJ for refusing to act pursuant to an “agreement, express or implied, the NFL [and] other Club[s] … to restrict or limit individual Club decision making … concerning the terms or conditions of employment offered to any player for inclusion, or included, in a Player Contract.”

Whether or not DS & JJ may have, at some point, agreed to the violative conduct and then changed their minds is irrelevant. Any argument based on the agreement of DS & JJ to the collusive conduct is based on the theory that an illegal agreement can be enforced (In this case, the attempted enforcement comes two years after the fact in the form of a sanction).

It can’t. Show me one cite, one theory that indicates an illegal contract (i.e. the verbal agreement in 2010 to avoid contract dumping in the uncapped year) can be legally enforced against a party who subsequently reneges on their promise to participate in the illegal agreement.

2) “The NFLPA says it was fine with them.” No. If you are asserting that the NFLPA has said the NFL’s owners agreement to restrict contract negotiations in 2010 was "fine with them", you are just wrong. Such an assertion is simply contrary to the known facts on this matter.

In fact, in January, 2011 (during the CBA negotiations), the NFLPA brought a lawsuit specifically alleging that the owner’s were entering into collusive agreements during the 2010 offseason. The validity of their allegations never reached the court as it the law suit was settled as part of the omnibus settlement that cleared the way for the current CBA. [See my response to SportsCurmdgeon above]. As a legal principle, the settlement of the NFLPA’s anti-collusion case is neither an admission nor a denial of collusive behavior - further, the settlement would be inadmissible in court as evidence and, as such, is simply not legally probative in any manner.

What the NFLPA[I] has said is that under the current CBA, and pursuant to the procedures stated therein, the NFLPA has “agreed to adjustments to team salary for the 2012 and 2013 seasons. These agreed-upon adjustments were structured in a manner that will not affect the salary cap or player spending on a league-wide basis.” [Quoting NFL’s statement on the penalties, see cite above].

As I stated before, this procedural acceptance by the NFLPA, under the current CBA, affects only their own substantive rights in relation to the NFL. Through their procedural acquiescence, however, the NFLPA cannot waive the substantive rights of another party. Please, show me one legal theory that would support your assertion that it can.

The only substantive effect of the NFLPA’s acceptance in regards to the rights of DS &JJ is to protect the NFL from any challenge by DS &JJ that the sanction was procedurally improper. In accordance with the procedures set forth in under the current CBA, the Management Council submitted and the NFLPA accepted the sanctions as part of their negotiated right to approve salary caps. So, as to the process by which it imposed the sanction, the NFL is protected and any attack on the sanction as procedurally invalid will likely fail. - - i.e. the Skins will cannot assert "The sanction is invalid b/c you failed to follow the rules in levying it." I concede that, as a procedural matter, it appears that the NFL followed the rules in levying the sanction.

HOWEVER - The ultimate question is not “Was the sanction levied in a procedurally correct manner?” Rather, the substantive question is whether or not the Skins took actions that would subject them to league discipline. For that to be true, they must have been in violation of a legally binding duty to the other owners or the joint venture known as the NFL. Based on well settled legal theory, I assert that the failure to abide by an agreement to restrict contract negotiations in 2010 is simply not a legally binding agreement enforceable by the NFL against any owner and that any attempt to enforce that agreement through sanction is substantively impermissible.

This is where we disagree .. you say "While it looks good at first blush, the NFLPA's procedural approval of the sanction is irrelevant " [B]I understand your opinion but I disagree that it is as you say irrelevant. You have 2 parties the owners and the players and both are together in their opinion of what happen except DS and JJ and it looks as if the Cowboys will accept the punishment.I enjoy your theories and at the end of the day that is all mine are becuase nether of us knows the true facts of the case and all we can do is speculate on what really transpired.You use very good words as "cheat" and "cheap ass case" but in the end we know the the NFL lawyers might make it look the other way around.

No. You have multiple parties and multiple rights and duties. The NFL and NFLPA are the two parties to the 2006 CBA and to the current CBA. Within the NFL, you have a joint venture of several distinct business entities. The question of the rights and duties owed by the NFL to any specific club is distinct from the rights and duties owed by the NFL to the NFLPA.

Your opinion is simply not based in any legal theory known to me. Please show me a sound, accepted legal theory … anyone, any theory, that supports your assertion that the NFLPA’s procedural acceptance of the salary cap adjustments in 2012 permits the NFL to enforce an illegal agreement against two of the distinct business entities that make up the NFL.

Yes. NFL lawyers will dress up the pile of sh** handed to them by the owners. They will obfuscate and they will point to their procedures. At the end of the day, however, the one irrefutable fact is that the sanction is being imposed based on the Skins refusal to act pursuant to an “agreement, express or implied, [between] the NFL [and] other Club[s] … to restrict or limit individual Club decision making … concerning the terms or conditions of employment offered to any player for inclusion, or included, in a Player Contract.”

Neither the facts you say are disputed (DS & JJ initially agreed to the conduct and reneged) or the facts which you say are undisputed (the NFLPA has approved the sanction for the 2010 conduct; Dallas is not pursuing a remedy) are legally relevant or probative on the issue of whether or not the NFL is permitted to enforce, through sanction, the leagues attempt to “restrict or limit [the Skins] decision making” in 2010.

Keep feeding the beast GiantOne. I am hungry and I am on a roll.

We actually agree on the NFLPA,now where we disagree is
your opinon that the actions of DS and JJ were not improper if as reported they did agree with the other 30 owners they did agree not to dump salaries then they action of the "comittee" overides the action of the 2(or 4)you say they were bound by the CBA.....yet the NFLPA says it was fine with them.Look you sayng the actions were proper at the time ,of course you do you are a Redskin fan but that simply is not the case.
This is where we disagree .. you say "While it looks good at first blush, the NFLPA's procedural approval of the sanction is irrelevant " I understand your opinion but I disagree that it is as you say irrelevant.You have 2 parties the owners and the players and both are together in their opinion of what happen except DS and JJ and it looks as if the Cowboys will accept the punishment.I enjoy your theories and at the end of the day that is all mine are becuase nether of us knows the true facts of the case and all we can do is speculate on what really transpired.You use very good words as "cheat" and "cheap ass case" but in the end we know the the NFL lawyers might make it look the other way around.

The NFL franchises were not bound to any CBA during that uncapped year. I think that's the part you're not fully understanding. The NFLPA had no choice but to go along with the sanctions, because it was part of the new CBA (I think I'm saying this right) not to sue the league, in exchange for the league setting this year's salary cap at a higher level than what it would have been set if the NFLPA had not agreed to this demand by the NFL. The league verbally warned the 32 owners not to go crazy during that uncapped year, thus, entering a secret agreement between the league and the owners (NOT the league and the NFLPA.) by definition, that is collusion. Four of the thirty-two decided not to go along with the collusion; two of those teams being more obvious about it apparently (Cowboys/Redskins.) The new CBA is not retro-active. So, legally speaking, the league cannot go back and punish any of the 32 teams for their actions during a time in which no CBA was in place. Whether if it truly creates an competitive unbalance has nothing to do with the legal grounds. In fact, the NFL has created a competitive unbalance with their actions against the Cowboys and Redskins by taking away cap money.

Keep feeding the beast GiantOne. I am hungry and I am on a roll.

JoeRedskin could go "nuclear" over cap mess.

Actually there was a CBA in place technically...just no cap as part of the CBA. This mechanism was intended to motivate both sides to negotiate a new CBA prior to a last year lame-duck CBA situation. Instead the owners decided that that CBA was not to their benefit and opted out, via a provision of the CBA, thus fast-forwarding the last year into 2010.